WTF is Malvasia?

Show Notes

Episode #218: WTF is Malvasia?  00:00

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KEY QUESTIONS

• What is Malvasia wine?
• What does Malvasia taste like?
• Should you chill Malvasia?
• What food pairs well with Malvasia?
• Is Malvasia similar to Pinot Grigio?
• Is Malvasia wine worth buying?
• Where does Malvasia wine come from?

Episode Overview and First Thoughts on Malvasia 00:33

Hello fellow Grapeful Dead! And welcome to The Wine Pair Podcast. I’m Joe, your sommelier of reasonably priced wine, and this is my wife and my wine pairing partner in crime, Carmela. And we are The Wine Pair! 

If you're new to our podcast, here's what we do: Every week we buy wines under $25 with our own money, taste them, and give you our brutally honest opinion on whether they're worth buying. Nobody pays us to review specific wines, we don't accept free bottles from wineries, and we're not afraid to call out a bad wine when we taste one. Decanter Magazine calls us fun, irreverent, chatty, and entertaining - so if that sounds like your vibe, welcome to our tribe of wine lovers.

Yes, the name for the tribe this week came once again from listener Timmy, and we have a few more from him thankfully so you don’t have to hear mine, but if any of you have any other ideas for names for our wine tribe, send them our way and we’ll ask you if you want to be a guest on the podcast if you have not been on yet. 

Today, Carmela, we are back to one of our beloved WTF episodes to explore just what the eff Malvasia wine is. We actually haven’t done an episode entitled WTF for about three months, but that doesn’t mean that we are not respecting the concept. As our faithful listeners know, what we really, really like to do is find wines that go beyond the usual crap you find on store shelves - because, if you notice, most of what you see in stores is a lot of the same, big brand, common wines like Cabernet Sauvignon and Chardonnay and Merlot and stuff like that, and we want to find wines that are different, exciting, and frankly better than most of that junk. 

So, even if an episode is not called WTF, you can be pretty sure that most of the time we are trying to expose you to wines that are worth learning about, and, even better, not too, too expensive. And these are not obscure, odd ball wines. They are very often wines that, in their home countries or regions are not only well-known, but are considered important for both cultural and gastronomic or local cuisine reasons. And that is what we really love - learning about the history, culture, and unique traditions of different parts of the world. And wine is a great way to do that because it is infused in all of those things. 

And, so, that is why we are doing this episode on a wine that you have probably never heard of before called Malvasia. And what is really interesting about Malvasia is that there are actually, depending on who you believe, anywhere from about 80 to almost 290 recognized varieties rather than a single grape, and it has been around so long and been shared over so many different parts of the world that there are really distinct styles of the wine and even genetically unrelated varieties share the same name. Crazy.

So, today we are going to focus on two specific Malvasia grapes and wines, namely Malvasia from Slovenia and from Crete in Greece, but before we get to those specific wines and areas, let’s take just a minute to understand just how vastly different the grape and wine can be. 

• Greece: The home of Malvasia is Crete, and that specific version of Malvasia is most famous for its rich sweet wines using sun dried grapes and oxidative aging - a fancy way of saying that they expose the wine to a lot of oxygen so it tastes and smells like your grandfather’s basement. Today they make both sweet and dry and fresh styles. 
• Croatia and Slovenia: As many of you may know, there is an area called the Istrian Peninsula and it is a region shared by Croatia, Slovenia, and Italy. Malvasia Istriana is the most well-known, and it is genetically distinct from other Malvasias - more on that later. The standard style is a dry, fresh, acidic, and saline - meaning salt-water like minerality. And, they are also considered a leader in this region for orange wines, which are white wine grapes where there is prolonged contact with the skins, a kind cousin to Rosé wines that are made from red wine grapes, if you didn’t know.
• Italy is next, and there are 18 officially recognized Malvasia varieties in Italy alone. In Emilia-Romagna, Malvasia is often made into frizzante (slightly sparkling) aromatic wines. Piedmont produces rare sweet sparkling reds and rosés (such as Malvasia di Casorzo). In Friuli-Venezia Giulia, Malvasia Istriana is made into elegant dry whites. And in Sicily and Tuscany,  it is often made into passito dessert wines. In fact, in Tuscany, Malvasia is a traditional component of the famous Vin Santo desert wine. 
• In Spain, specifically the Canary Islands the grapes are grown in volcanic ash pits, and are made both dry and sweet. In Catalonia Spain they make fragrant, high alcohol dry and sweet wines with it, and in Rioja, it is often blended with Viura which we just talked about a few weeks ago. 
• In Portugal: the most famous use of Malvasia comes from the island of Madeira where it is known as Malmsey, and Malmsey is the sweetest and richest style of Madeira with a lot of residual sugar. In the Douro Valley, unrelated varieties like Malvasia Fina, which is actually Boal, are used as key components in the production of White Port, and what is really funny to me about that is that I thought White Port tasted a lot like Vin Santo, and Malvasia is used in Vin Santo as well. So there!

Anyway, that is just a long-winded way of saying that Malvasia is a wine with a bunch of different styles, and even a bunch of different grapes with the same name and a wine that is highly dependent on the region and the way the winemaker wants to make it. In fact, the grape is often described as an “oenological kaleidoscope" because it can be made into virtually any style of wine.

Today, however, we have two Malvasia wines to try and review, one from Crete in Greece and one from Slovenia, to see if either or both are worth your hard earned money, so we’ll get to those in a minute . . .

But first . . . we have to do our shameless plug.

Thank you for listening to us and for supporting our show, and know that we buy all of the wine we taste and review every week so that we can give you real and honest reviews. If you like what you’re hearing, please subscribe to our podcast and leave us a five star rating and review so we can grow listeners.

We also love to hear from you and we always respond so you can follow us on Instagram and Bluesky at thewinepairpodcast. You can contact us on our website thewinepairpodcast.com, and you can sign up for our email newsletter there and you can also send us a note at joe@thewinepairpodcast.com and let us know about wines your want us to review or just shoot the breeze, we love chatting it up.

And, as we do every week, we’ll tell you someone we think you should recommend The Wine Pair Podcast to - because the best way for us to grow listeners is when you tell your family and friends about us - and this week, we want you to recommend us to anyone who is looking for a new white wine to add to their collection because they may be really interested in learning more about this crazy wine called Malvasia


Topic: WTF is Malvasia? 10:39

Ok, Carmela, it’s time to find out just what the eff Malvasia is all about, shall we? And we are going to find out specifically about effing Malvasia from Crete in Greece and effing Slovenia. 

Let’s start with effing Crete. 

The history of Malvasia on the island of Crete is deep, with some experts believing the entire Malvasia family of grapes most likely originated there. Evidence of winemaking on the island goes all the way back to 5000 BC, and archaeological discoveries of ancient wine presses and Minoan palace paintings confirm that winemaking was central to early Cretan civilizations.

During the Minoan civilization which ran from 2000–1400 BCE, the people of Crete imported Egyptian winemaking techniques.  The island’s most significant era for Malvasia, however, was in the Middle Ages when it was under Venetian rule between 1212–1669, which a lot of people may not have known. This era was called the Candia Era because during this time period, the island was known as Candia, and its sweet Malvasia wines were often labeled as Malvasia di Candia and were sent all over the world. 

In fact, these wines were exported in massive quantities to major hubs like London, Paris, and Constantinople. The trade was so dominant that Venetian wine shops themselves became known as malvasie.

However, Malvasia from Crete was significantly impacted following the Ottoman occupation in the 17th century, during which many vineyards were uprooted or abandoned. The Ottoman Empire prohibited alcohol, and so, by the early 19th century, production on the island had largely faded.

However, in a story we often tell, in the late 20th and early 21st centuries, winemakers in Crete began rescuing near-extinct indigenous varieties. After years of research and experimental vinification, Malvasia was officially recognized with Protected Designation of Origin (PDO) status in 2010. Today, Crete is one of the few regions in Greece authorized to produce PDO Malvasia wines.

While there are dozens of Malvasia sub-types, Crete is specifically associated with two significant varieties:

• Malvasia di Candia Aromatica: Remember Candia? A highly aromatic widely found on the island today.
• Malvasia Bianca di Candia: Often referred to as the "white malmsey of Crete," it is thought to be the variety that carried the island's reputation across Europe during the Middle Ages for sweet wines.

Today, Malvasia from Crete still comes in two basic forms - a dry aromatic white wine, and a sweet, sun-dried style.

Now, let’s talk about Malvasia in effing Slovenia

As we mentioned earlier, the history of Malvasia in Slovenia is inextricably linked to the Istrian Peninsula where Italy, Croatia, and Slovenia connect. The variety is known as Malvasia Istriana or Istrska Malvazija locally and has become a signature white grape for Slovenia. This specific variety in Slovenia is a genetically distinct indigenous grape with a history in the region dating back nearly two thousand years.

Evidence suggests that Malvasia was cultivated on the Istrian Peninsula as early as 300 AD.
Remember the Venetians? Well, Venetian merchants brought vine cuttings from Greece to the upper Adriatic, including parts of modern-day Slovenia, Croatia, and Italy. Full circle, bro.

Despite its shared name with Greek varieties, DNA analysis has confirmed that Malvasia Istriana is unrelated  to the other members of the Malvasia family. I guess it's kind of like when you meet someone with the same last name but you don’t know each other and can’t find a common relative. Yeah, maybe somewhere back in time there was a common ancestor, but it is long gone today.

During the socialist era in Slovenia, the grape survived by being relegated to lower, frost-prone areas where other varieties struggled to grow. It was eventually revived and elevated by producers during the 1990s.

Today in Slovenia, Malvasia is primarily grown in the Primorska region, which includes Slovenian Istria, the Vipava Valley, and Goriška Brda. None of these, unfortunately, mean much to me, but I intend to change that because I would really love to travel to Slovenia someday. From a map standpoint, if you know where Venice is, there is actually part of Italy that hooks around the Adriatic coast and touches Slovenia and is really close to Croatia. Take a look at a map - it is kind of fascinating.

We mentioned this earlier, but Malvasia in Slovenia is made in a fresh, aromatic style, a skin-contact Orange wine style which is going to be complex and sometimes funky, and in sweet styles made from overly mature grapes. Kind of like me

Today, Malvasia is one of Slovenia's most economically and culturally significant white grapes. It is considered a flagship variety of the Primorska region. Its ability to retain natural acidity in warm conditions makes it perfect for producing balanced wines that have significant aging potential, and actually makes it a white wine that could be seen in more and more places because of the changing climate. And, for Slovenian boutique wineries, where it is often used in experimental, organic, and biodynamic winemaking to showcase the unique "liquid gold" heritage of the region, it is particularly important.

So that gives you a little background on this wine based on what we are going to be drinking today. So, on that note, I think it’s time to learn a little more about the specific wines we are drinking today. Whaddya say?


Malvasia Wines We Chose for This Episode 20:08

As usual, the wines we have chosen for this episode are under $25, and they should be relatively easy to find because I bought them at wine.com. Malvasia is definitely findable, but you are going to have to look around and ask around a bit. Again, I found these wines on wine.com, so there is Malvasia out there, but look for shops with good wine sections, maybe some natural wine stores to find the Slovenian Orange Malvasia, and as always, go to your local wine merchant and they will be more than happy to help you. 

The first wine we are going to drink is the 2022 Douloufakis Malvasia Femina and this one comes from Crete in Greece, so right from the original home of the wine. This wine actually got a 91 from Wine Enthusiast.

I think I found the tech sheet for this vintage, but I am not 100% sure because there was not actually a vintage date on the tech sheet so we can maybe take some of it with a grain of salt. The winery says they harvest the wine by hand and ferment in stainless steel tanks at low temperatures to keep the wine fresh. Remember that for white wine, cold fermentation really helps with things like keeping the aromatics of the wine and the acidity as well. 

They also mention that the wine is racked off of the lees and put back into stainless steel tanks. What this means is that after they ferment the wine, they pump the wine out into a clean, stainless steel container so that the wine is no longer exposed to the lees, which is the dead yeast from the fermentation process. Sometimes winemakers keep wine on the lees when they want a rounder or richer wine, but when a wine is removed from the lees, they want to keep it fresh and crisp. 

Then they say they keep the wine in the stainless steel tanks for a short time and then bottle it. Technically, the grapes are Malvasia dI Candia Aromatica, they use drip vine irrigation, the vines are located about 1200 feet above sea level, and they use Double Cordon Royat vine training system where they allow the grape vines to split into two directions like a T and they train the vines to follow a wire or string. The purpose is to make the grapes bunches be more out in the open to reduce the risk of disease or rot, and make it easier to harvest. 

The winery has been in the family for three generations, and they are focusing more and more on local varieties. The winemaker is Nikos who is the grandson of the original founder, and he actually studied oenology in Piedmont, Italy where they make, among other things, Barolo, Barbaresco, and Gavi, three of my favorite wines.

The next wine we are going to drink is the 2024 Rodica Malvasia, and actually on the label, the wine uses the Slovenian spelling of Malvazija. Technically, the grape in the wine is Malvazija Istriana, and the winery is located in Istria. 

I couldn’t really find ratings for this wine, but there was a tech sheet that I think covers this vintage, so we are going to go for it. 

The grapes are Certified Organic. The winery says every second row of the vineyard is empty and planted with grass. They also say they use only natural fertilizer produced from natural manure. And, the vineyards are worked without any irrigation.

When making the wine, they say after de-stemming the grapes are macerated with the pulp and skins for just a few hours and spontaneous fermentation begins. The wine is then transferred into stainless steel tanks where it finishes fermentation. Up to 25% of the wine was matured for 6 months in 2,500-liter acacia barrels, and then blended in stainless steel tanks and bottled unfiltered.

So this is definitely a bit of a different style because they are introducing some oak into the process. Slovenian oak tends to be pretty light, and they tend to use Slovenian oak, as opposed to Slavonian oak, for large barrels, which these are. It tends to add a little spice and some toastiness, but not heavy vanilla or cedar like American oak, and the fact that they are huge barrels makes the imparting of any oak flavor low.

The winery says the vineyard is about 5 km from the Adriatic sea in the Gulf of Trieste, they are about the same level as the wine from Crete at around 1000 feet above sea level, and they say the nights are cool and there is a constant breeze which helps keep the vineyards well ventilated. 

But, I think that is enough information - let’s get to drinking! We’ll take a quick break and be right back. And, if you have these wines or similar wines, drink along with us to get some participation points, which you can trade-in for free stickers. You just need to send me an email with your mailing address, and I will get those “I drink with The Wine Pair Podcast” stickers over to you!

LINKS TO SOURCES FOR THESE SPECIFIC WINES

• https://media2.vvg.wine/media/dpjdczjs/douloufakis_malvasia_femina_v4-product-sheet-140105.pdf 
• https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5e6427e605f12c0e70f377d6/t/63af5a6710fdb42de2dc5591/1672436327716/Rodica+Malvasia.pdf 

2022 Douloufakis Malvasia Femina, 2024 Rodica Malvasia Wine Tasting, Pairing, and Review 25:49

Wine: Douloufakis Malvasia Femina (Click here to find this wine on wine.com. We may be compensated if you purchase.)
Region: Greece, Crete
Year: 2022
Price: $19.97
Retailer: wine.com
Alcohol: 13%
Grapes: Malvasia
Professional Rating: WE 91 Vivino 3.9

What we tasted and smelled in this Douloufakis Malvasia Femina: 

• Color: light straw, lemon yellow
• On the nose: airplane glue, fuzzy peach, peach pit, nectarine, green apple, lemon, pineapple, guava, tropical fruit
• In the mouth: lemon or lime pith, beer with a lime in it, salty, briny, hoppy, tropical fruit

Food to pair with this Douloufakis Malvasia Femina: Good food wine, cocktail appetizer wine, stinky cheese, creamy cheese, baked brie, puffed pastry with cheese and spinach, spicy foods, Indian food, french fries, fish and chips 
 
As a reminder on our rating scale, we rate on a scale of 1-10, with no half points, where 7 and above means that we would buy it, and 4 and below means that we are likely to pour it down the sink, and a 5 or 6 means we are likely to drink it and finish it, but we are probably not going to buy it. 

Douloufakis Malvasia Femina Wine Rating: 

• Joe: 8/10
• Carmela: 7/10

Wine: Rodica Malvasia (Click here to find this wine on wine.com. We may be compensated if you purchase)
Region: Slovenia, Istria
Year: 2024
Price: $21.97
Retailer: wine.com
Alcohol: 12.5%
Grapes: Malvasia
Professional Rating: Vivino 4.2

What we tasted and smelled in this Rodica Malvasia: 

• Color: sunset, orange, yellow khaki
• On the nose: Not super aromatic, spicy, herby, thyme, rosemary, cinnamon, spiced orange, star anise, pear, creamy, orange vanilla sherbet, 
• In the mouth: Cantaloupe, melon rind, orange on the aftertaste, Orange Julius, blood orange, subtle, austere, clove, herbs

Food to pair with this Rodica Malvasia: Spicy foods, spicy sushi and sushi rolls, Asian dumplings, ramen, chicken teriyaki, poke bowl, grilled chicken, tempura, butter chicken
 

Rodica Malvasia Wine Rating: 

• Joe: 7/10
• Carmela: 7/10

Which one of these are you finishing tonight?

• Carmela: Rodica Malvasia
• Joe: Douloufakis Malvasia Femina

The Test: Did we nail the taste profiles expected from Malvasia?  38:28

• General 
  • Will depend a lot on where it is from
  • Dry styles from Crete tend to be very aromatic, with flowers like honeysuckle, jasmine, and white flowers. The palate will have peach, apricot, and tropical fruits like guava. Sometimes low in acidity and with a round mouthfeel sometimes described as oily.
  • Dry Slovenian Malvasia tends to have some similarities such as white peach, citrus, acacia blossom, and linden flowers (citrus honey scent). Often a distinct chalky minerality and a salinity. Unlike many other Malvasias, this variety holds its acidity well in warm climates, resulting in wines that are fresh, tangy, and capable of aging
• Douloufakis Malvasia Femina
  • Winery: Light golden color, followed by an attractive aroma. The enchanting aroma is reminiscent of lemon blossom, jasmine and some exotic fruits like passion fruit or mango. Dry flavor with refreshing acidity. Pleasant and long lasting aftertaste.
  • WE: A jolt of Cretan sunshine in a glass. Notes of freshly squeezed lemon and tangerine headline this pale straw-colored Malvasia di Candida, an aromatic Mediterranean white wine grape. Each sip is similarly bright, with a cornucopia of citrus juices and zests offset by quietly sophisticated mineral notes.
• Rodica Malvasia
  • Winery: The nose offers aromas of wild flowers and peach. Medium-body with balanced acidity and bright fruitiness, this Malvasia is elegant and refreshing.
  • MYSA natural wine: Aromas of white flowers, peach, and pineapple, with a touch of green tea and a balanced texture

What is the verdict on Malvasia? 40:17
Happy with it. We should start drinking more of it. Really like it, it is a great wine.

And now it is time to head over to our new desk so that we can cover our wine in the news this week segment.

Wine in the news this week: Estate Dispute Sees Potentially Largest Sanctions Imposed For AI-Related Misconduct. 41:11

• https://www.wealthmanagement.com/estate-planning/estate-dispute-sees-potentially-largest-sanctions-imposed-for-ai-related-misconduct 
• https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/ai-hallucinations-cost-lawyers-110-004343527.html 

This week our wine in the news comes to us from Anna Sulkin Stern writing for Wealth Management. And the article is called "Estate Dispute Sees Potentially Largest Sanctions Imposed For AI-Related Misconduct."

So, Carmela, it keeps happening. Dummies keep using AI to write stuff for them, and I will just say, we do not do that. the short version of the story is this: a woman tried to sue two of her brothers over the family winery, and her lawyers submitted 15 fake AI-generated court cases to the judge who was not amused.

Here is the full story, and it starts in the town of Jacksonville, Oregon where our good friends the Rosen’s live, and I wonder if they know this story?

The family is the Wisnovskys, and their mother owned Valley View Winery in Jacksonville, Oregon. There are four siblings: Robert, Joanne,  Mark, and Michael. Mark and Michael are the younger brothers, and they are the ones who have been running the winery for decades. Back in 2016, their mother changed her estate plan to allow the brothers to buy out their siblings' interests when she died so they could keep running the winery.

That did not sit well with Joanne. So in 2019, Joanne and her mother filed a competing estate plan, one that would give the winery to Joanne and Robert instead. Then, in 2021, Joanne sued her brothers for twelve million dollars, accusing them of manipulating their mother in the earlier estate agreements. The brothers countersued the same year. Then in 2023, their mother died, and at some point had been showing signs of dementia.

As the lawsuit moved forward, Joanne's legal team submitted briefs to the judge containing fifteen AI-generated fake case citations and eight fabricated quotations. Some of the cases they cited did not exist at all. Others cited real court opinions -- but with quotes that were completely made up. When the brothers' legal team pointed out the fake citations, the filings kept coming anyway over five months and across three separate briefs.

The judge found that Joanne herself had written the briefs using AI software and handed them to her legal team to submit. He dismissed her claims entirely with prejudice, meaning she cannot bring them again, and imposed over one hundred thousand dollars in fines and attorney fees. Experts believe this is the largest sanction ever imposed for AI-related errors in U.S. legal history.

One additional interesting twist to the story. The lawyer Joanne ended up with was a man named Stephen Brigandi who is a San Diego attorney, and his previous career highlight was serving as a corporate lawyer for Jack in the Box. He agreed to take Joanne's case for free because his son is dating Joanne's daughter.

The best part? The sister is planning to appeal.

There is actually even more crazy stuff that I didn’t cover, so look for the links to the articles in our show notes.

Carmela, what are your thoughts on this case?

Listener Shoutouts 45:17
We have some fun listener shoutouts for this week, and we so appreciate when you reach out to use and tell us what you think, or what you are drinking, and so here are some shoutouts:

• Timmy sent us a wine in the news article on tariffs
• Adrienne and her German wine class at the Philadelphia wine school, as well as getting stiffed on the ina Marty Goutte d'Argent Sauvignon Blanc.She also says we make her laugh. 
• Hasini heading to Sicily!

Wines coming up in future episodes in case you want to drink along with us 46:28

• 2 Buck Chuck
  • 2023 Charles Shaw California Chardonnay
  • 2023 Charles Shaw California Cabernet Sauvignon
• Lebanese wines
  • Chateau Musar Lebanon Jeune Red 2022
  • Massaya Le Colombier Rouge 2021
• Italian Sangiovese, but not Chianti
  • 2022 Cantina Roccafiore Melograno
  • 2021 Di Majo Norante Sangiovese
• Alsace Pinot Gris
  • 2020 Pierre Sparr Pinot Gris
  • 2020 Frey-Sohler Vielles Vignes Pinot Gris
• Kirkland Bordeaux
  • 2023 Pauillac
  • 2023 Saint-Julien
• Kirkland Châteauneuf-du-Pape 
  • 2024 Châteauneuf-du-Pape 
• Kirkland Moscato d’Asti
  • 2025 Moscato d’Asti

Outro and how to find The Wine Pair Podcast 47:02

Thank you for listening to us and for supporting our show, and remember, we buy all of our own wine and we do all of the writing and recording and editing to bring you a show every week because we absolutely love doing it, and our small little ask for you is that you please follow or subscribe to our podcast and also please leave us a nice rating and review  to help us grow our listeners - and a huge thank you to all of you who have done so already! 

You can also follow us on Instagram and Bluesky at thewinepairpodcast. You can contact us on our website thewinepairpodcast.com, and you can sign up for our email newsletter there and you can also visit our “Shop Wine” section where you can find links to buy the wines that we rate as buys in each episode.  I will also note that on our website, if you are curious about a wine we have covered in the past, we do have a pretty good search functionality, so you can use that find wines you want to know more about. 

And we want to make content you care about and you like, so send us a note or DM us and give us some feedback or let us know if there are wines you want us to try or wine making areas of the world you are curious about - and we’ll take care of it! joe@thewinepairpodcast.com 

Alright, with that, we are going to sign off, so thanks again, and we will see you next time. And, as we say, life is short, so stop drinking shitty wine.

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KEY INSIGHTS & FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Q. What is Malvasia wine?

A. Malvasia is not a single grape but a sprawling family of up to 290 genetically distinct varieties. It spans dry whites, sweet wines, and orange wines. On this episode, we tasted two very different expressions: one from Crete and one from Slovenia, and they tasted almost nothing alike.

Q. What does Malvasia taste like?

A. It depends on which Malvasia you pour. The Cretan Douloufakis leaned tropical and citrusy, with peach, nectarine, guava, and a salty, hoppy finish. The Slovenian Rodica was spicy and herby, with thyme, rosemary, cinnamon, and a palate of cantaloupe and orange. Same family, totally different wines.

Q. Should you chill Malvasia?

A. Yes. Both of the Malvasias we tried on this episode are white wines and should be served well chilled. The Cretan style is a bright, refreshing white that benefits from the cold. The Slovenian Istrian style is a bit more complex, but still best cold.

Q. What food pairs well with Malvasia?

A. It depends on the style. The Cretan Malvasia Femina works great with stinky cheese, baked brie, spicy foods, Indian food, and even fish and chips. The Slovenian Rodica is a natural with Asian flavors: spicy sushi, ramen, chicken teriyaki, poke bowls, and tempura.

Q. Is Malvasia similar to Pinot Grigio?

A. There is some overlap in the light, fresh, and easy-drinking category, but Malvasia tends to be more aromatic and interesting. The Cretan version we tasted had a funky, tropical nose that Pinot Grigio rarely delivers. If you like Pinot Grigio but want something with more personality, Malvasia is worth the try.

Q. Is Malvasia wine worth buying?

A. We think so, especially at under $22. Joe scored the Douloufakis Malvasia Femina from Crete an 8/10 and Carmela gave it a 7. The Rodica from Slovenia got 7s from both of us. For the price point, both punched above their weight, and the Cretan bottle especially overdelivered.

Q. Where does Malvasia wine come from?

A. Malvasia has ancient roots, with the name tied to the Greek port city of Monemvasia. Today it is grown across Greece, Italy, Slovenia, Spain, Portugal, and beyond. We tasted it from two of its oldest homes: Crete in Greece and the Istrian Peninsula in Slovenia.

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RESEARCH ARTICLES AND LINKS FOR THIS EPISODE

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malvasia
• https://www.decanter.com/premium/malvasia-a-guide-to-this-ancient-grape-and-its-sprawling-worldwide-family-537589/
• https://www.wine-searcher.com/grape-264-malvasia
• https://thatusefulwinesite.com/varietals/whites/Malvasia.php
• https://www.malvasiamyth.com/historical_data/
• https://www.internationalwinechallenge.com/Canopy-Articles/the-life-death-and-rebirth-of-malmsey.html
• https://www.masterclass.com/articles/malvasia-wine-guide
• https://www.jancisrobinson.com/learn/grape-varieties/white/malvasia
• https://www.winewithseth.com/winewiki/malvasia-istriana/
• https://younggunofwine.com/wine-101/grape-varieties/malvasia-istriana/
• https://www.quattrocalici.com/wine-grapes/malvasia-istriana/
• https://www.italyabroad.com/grapes/malvasia-istriana
• https://venica.it/en/malvasia/
• https://www.decanter.com/wine-news/slovenia-a-wine-lovers-guide-517554/
• https://wine-intelligence.com/blogs/wines-grapes-cru-ried-wine-brand-grape/malvasia-istriana-grape-wine-intelligence-vinovistara
• https://stefangourmet.com/2025/05/29/friuli-wine-tour-part-3-brda-slovenia/
• https://www.gamberorossointernational.com/news/the-11-malvasia-wines-from-collio-and-colli-orientali-del-friuli-with-the-best-value-for-money-chosen-by-gambero-rosso/
• https://www.greekgastronomyguide.gr/en/item/malvasia-monemvasia/
• https://www.malvasiafestival.gr/en/malvasia_wine_en
• https://www.wine-searcher.com/regions-crete
• https://vertdevin.com/en/douloufakis-winery-2/
• https://cantinepovero.com/en/malvasia-wine-vineyards-characteristics-and-pairings/
• https://www.winetraveler.com/grape/malvasia/
• https://www.malvasiamyth.com/historical_data/
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeira_wine
• https://www.wine-searcher.com/regions-madeira+malvasia+-+malmsey
• https://www.internationalwinechallenge.com/Canopy-Articles/the-life-death-and-rebirth-of-malmsey.html
• https://www.greekgastronomyguide.gr/en/item/malvasia-monemvasia/
• https://www.malvasiafestival.gr/en/malvasia_wine_en
• https://www.wine-searcher.com/regions-crete
• https://vincarta.com/blog/crete-wine-the-ultimate-guide
• https://vertdevin.com/en/douloufakis-winery-2/
• https://www.winewithseth.com/winewiki/malvasia-istriana/
• https://younggunofwine.com/wine-101/grape-varieties/malvasia-istriana/
• https://www.decanter.com/wine-news/slovenia-a-wine-lovers-guide-517554/
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqBoyC-hQ5A
• https://www.heartofthedesert.com/malvasia-bianca-a-wine-with-ancient-origins/

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________________________

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Joe: 00:00
Carmela, did you know Malvasia has at least 80 different varieties, maybe as many as 290.

Carmela: 00:06
What on earth?

Joe: 00:07
I know. And we tried two of them today, and and what do you think? I mean, I don't want to be too much spoiler alert, but what do you think?

Carmela: 00:12
I'm happy.

Joe: 00:13
Happy is a great happy. We tried two different Malvasia from two different regions, and they were two really different wines. But okay, a little spoiler alert. We like them both. But listen to learn more. Yeah.

Carmela: 00:26
Two winners.

Joe: 00:33
Hello, fellow grateful dead, and welcome to the wine pair podcast. I'm Joe, your simolier of reasonably priced wine, and this is my wife and my wine pairing partner in crime, Carmilla.

Carmela: 00:43
Hi there!

Joe: 00:44
And we are the wine pair.

Carmela: 00:45
Wait, what was that name?

Joe: 00:46
It'll we'll get there in a second. If you're new to our podcast, here's what we do. Every week we buy wines under $25 each with our own money. We taste them and we give you our brutally honest opinion on whether they're worth buying. Nobody pays us to review specific wines. We don't accept free bottles from wineries, and we're not afraid to call out a bad wine when we taste one. And Decanter Magazine calls us fun, irreverent, chatty, and entertaining. So if that sounds like your vibe, welcome to our tribe of wine lovers and grapeful dead.

Carmela: 01:14
Grapeful?

Joe: 01:15
Grape Grapeful.

Carmela: 01:17
Oh Timmy.

Joe: 01:19
It's Timmy again.

Carmela: 01:20
That was good!

Joe: 01:21
See, it's uh Timmy once again is saving you all from having to hear tribe names from me. But if you want new ones, Timmy's got several. So we've got we got more coming from Timmy.

Carmela: 01:31
I love that.

Joe: 01:32
Yeah, Grapeful. I'm sorry if I mispronounced it, but if you have an idea for a tribe name, send it to us and we'll ask you if you want to be on the podcast if you haven't been on before. All right. Okay, today, Carmela, we are back to one of our beloved what the F episodes to explore just what the Malvasia wine is. And we actually haven't done an episode entitled WTF for about three months. But that doesn't mean that you still like to say it a lot. I I do I do like to say what very often. But that doesn't mean that we are not respecting the concept. As our faithful listeners know, what we really, really like to do is find wines that go beyond the usual crap that you find on store shelves. Because if you notice, most of what you see in stores is a lot of the same big brand common wines like Cabernet Sauvignon, Chardonnay, and Merlot, and stuff like that. And we want to help you find wines that are different and exciting, and frankly, better than most of the junk that you find in stores, right, Carmela?

Carmela: 02:26
Yeah, we don't like junk. We don't except for that one commercial when it says junk.

Joe: 02:30
Make the junk disappear.

Carmela: 02:31
Right. I would I would like that.

Joe: 02:32
But that's because you don't like junk.

Carmela: 02:34
Right. Because that's yeah, whatever.

Joe: 02:37
Okay, I like it. So, Carmela, even if an episode is not called WTF, you can be pretty sure that most of the time we are trying to expose you, not expose your, but expose you to wines that are worth learning about and even better, not too expensive. And you know what? They're not obscure oddball wines most of the time. They're very often wines that in their home countries or regions are actually very well known and considered important for cultural and your favorite word, gastronomic or local cuisine reasons. You just don't like gastronomies.

Carmela: 03:06
It just feels like there's yeah, something wrong with you.

Joe: 03:09
But gastronomic is a good thing.

Carmela: 03:11
Um, I feel very gastronomic. Or somebody says, Wow, you look gastronomic.

Joe: 03:15
No, nobody would call you gastronomic.

Carmela: 03:17
I know. I'm just saying if they it's just is a weird sounding word.

Joe: 03:20
It is. It is.

Carmela: 03:21
I don't know why it has to do with something like good and delicious. I don't know.

Joe: 03:26
It does. And back to the wines. That's what we really love. We love learning about the history and the culture and the unique traditions of different parts of the world. And wine is a great way to do that because it's kind of infused into all those thangs. You with me?

Carmela: 03:39
I'm always with you, honey. That's true. Yeah, you're right. You can't get away from it. No, you can't.

Joe: 03:43
And so that is why we are doing this episode on a wine that you've probably never heard of called Malvasia. And what is really interesting about Malvasia is that there are actually, depending on who you believe, anywhere from about 80 to almost 290 recognized varieties rather than a single grape called Malvasia. And it's been around so long and been shared over so many different parts of the world that there are really distinct styles of the wine and even genetically unrelated varieties that share the same name.

Carmela: 04:13
Oh wow.

Joe: 04:14
Which is kind of crazy. Amazing. So today we're gonna focus on two specific Malvasia grapes and wines, namely Malvasia from Slovenia and from Crete and Greece. But before we get to those specific wines and areas, we're gonna take just a minute to understand just how vastly different the grape and wine can be depending on where it's from. Okay. All right. So first Greece. The home of Malvasia is Crete, and that specific version of Malvasia is most famous for its rich, sweet wines using sun-dried grapes and oxidative aging, which is a fancy way of saying that they expose the wine to a lot of oxygen so it tastes and smells like your grandfather's basement. And they also make dry and fresh styles as well, which we'll talk about. And then there's Croatia and Slovenia. As many of you know, and some of you don't know, there's an area called the Istrian Peninsula, and it's a region shared by Croatia, Slovenia, and Italy. And Malvasia Istriana is the most well-known, and it is actually genetically distinct from other Malvesias, and we'll talk more about that later.

Speaker 3: 05:16
Okay.

Joe: 05:17
The standard style is dry and fresh and acidic and saline, salt water, you know. And they're also considered a leader in this region for orange wines, which again are white wines that are soaked on the skins for a while. But that's that's for another day.

Carmela: 05:30
I mean, we have talked about those.

Joe: 05:31
Yes, we've covered that.

Carmela: 05:32
Right.

Joe: 05:33
Italy is next, and there are actually 18 officially recognized Malvasia varieties in Italy alone. 18. In Emilia Romagna, Malvasia is made into frizzante, which is slightly sparkling quite often. And then in Piedmont, there's a rare sweet sparkling red or rose, such as Malvasia di Cassorosso, and then Fruilia Venezia Giulia, Malvasia Istriana, the same one they make in Slovenia, is made into elegant dry wines. And then in Sicily and Tuscany, it is often made into Pasito dessert wines. In fact, in Tuscany, Malvasia is a traditional component of the famous Vinsanto dessert wines.

Carmela: 06:14
Ooh, I like to sometimes use that in my Tyramisu.

Joe: 06:17
You do. And just remember that Vinsanto for just one second, too. Okay. Because it'll come back.

unknown: 06:23
All right.

Joe: 06:23
Now, in Spain, specifically in the Canary Islands, the grapes are grown in volcanic ash pits and are made both dry and sweet. In Catalonia, Spain, they make fragrant, high alcohol, dry, and sweet wines with it. And in Rioja, it's often blended with viora, which we just talked about a few weeks ago and we really liked. And then in Portugal, the most famous Malvasia comes from the island of Madeira.

Speaker 3: 06:46
Ah.

Joe: 06:46
Where your brother and his girlfriend are going to see Bad Bunny, not Big Bunny, but Bad Bunny.

Carmela: 06:51
That's right.

Joe: 06:52
And where it's known as Malmsey. And Malmsey is the sweetest and richest style of Madeira with a lot of residual sugar.

Carmela: 06:59
They don't drink a lot of wine.

Joe: 07:02
They don't. They don't. They drink a lot of beer.

Carmela: 07:04
Right. I was just about to say, oh, we're going to have to see if they, you know, dabble in it in a bit. I mean, dabble a little bit in it. But I don't I don't know if they will.

Joe: 07:13
I don't know if they will either. And if you're wondering who we actually are talking about, it's Carmelo's brother and his girlfriend.

Carmela: 07:18
Right, right, right. He's been on the podcast before, Mark. Oh, he has. He has.

Joe: 07:21
In the way back machine. Yep. Like a way back machine.

Carmela: 07:24
Right, right. So, uh, but you know, the beer thing in Portugal is kind of a big deal. Okay. I'm going on a tangent. We don't have to go there. But I just, you know, you made me my mind started wondering when you talked about Madeira and my brother and his girlfriend.

Joe: 07:37
I just want you all to know that before we started the podcast, Carmela said, let's bang this one out and let what's happening.

Carmela: 07:43
Okay.

Joe: 07:44
She's just taking it down all these, which is fine. I want you to take it down paths. It's your podcast too.

Carmela: 07:49
Right.

Joe: 07:50
Right. Anyway, in the Duoro Valley in Portugal, unrelated varieties like Malvasia fina, which is actually boal. I don't know why that came up, are used as key components in the production of white port. And what is really funny to me is that I thought that white port tasted a lot like Vinsanto. Yeah. And Malvasia is used in Vinsanto.

Carmela: 08:12
Oh, there you go.

Joe: 08:13
It came around. Wow.

Carmela: 08:15
You just knew.

Joe: 08:16
So there. So anyway, that is just a long-winded way of saying that Malvasia is a wine with a bunch of different styles and even a bunch of different grapes with the same name and a wine that is highly dependent on the region and the way the winemaker wants to make it. And in fact, the grape is often described as an analogical kaleidoscope. Because it can be made into virtually any style of wine.

Carmela: 08:38
Oh wow. Virtually any style. We talked about presented why drink anything else. Why is there even other wine?

Joe: 08:45
You know what? That's what we're going to answer. Maybe, maybe not today. Because we have two loaded questions. It is so loaded. We have two Malvasia wines to try and review, one from Crete and one from Slovenia to see if either or both are worth your hard-earned money. So we'll get to those in a minute. But first, you gotta do our shameless plug. That's right. So thank you for listening to us. Why are you laughing? Because I'm just thinking about how you just went down the tangent of your brother and his girlfriend liking beer and not wine. That's right.

Carmela: 09:12
And then Portugal's really fussy about their beers.

Joe: 09:15
Oh, yeah. You like if you're in Lisbon, you gotta drink one thing, and if you're in Porto, it's another.

Carmela: 09:21
And you just want to make sure you don't choose the wrong one. So I don't know if we gave them a heads up, but we should have.

Joe: 09:27
Actually, we might need to call them because they're leaving tomorrow. Anyway, thank you for listening to us and supporting our show. And know that we buy all the wine we taste and review every week so that we can give you real and honest reviews. And if you like what you're hearing, please subscribe to our podcast and leave us a nice five-star rating and review so we can grow listeners. And thank you to everybody who's already done that. We'd love to hear from you. We always respond so you can follow us on Instagram and Blue Sky, maybe TikTok at the WinePair Podcast. And you can contact us on our website, thewinepairpodcast.com, sign up for our email newsletter there, and you can always send us a note at Joe at the winepairpodcast.com and just shoot the breeze. You know, we like to hear from you. Wow. We sometimes our listeners send us really long notes, and I love it.

Carmela: 10:08
You sure do.

Joe: 10:09
I do, and as we do every week, we'll tell you someone we think you should recommend the wine pair podcast to because that is the best way for us to grow listeners when you tell your family and friends about us. And this week we want you to recommend us to anyone who's looking for a new white wine to add to their collection because they may be really interested in learning more about this crazy wine called Malvasia.

unknown: 10:29
Wow.

Joe: 10:29
I'm just gonna kid you just every time I look at you, I just want to crack up because of this tangent you went down. I love it.

Carmela: 10:36
No, why? What's so funny about it?

Joe: 10:38
I don't know. Okay, Carmela, it's time to find out just what the f Malvasia is all about, shall we?

Carmela: 10:44
Let's do it.

Joe: 10:45
And then we're gonna really actually split it into two. We're gonna find out specifically what f Malvasia from Crete in Greece is and what f Slovenian Malvasia is, too.

Carmela: 10:54
Oh my.

Joe: 10:55
Yeah.

Carmela: 10:55
So let's start with f Crete. That did catch my attention. Is that what you're trying to do?

Joe: 10:60
I'm trying to keep you engaged. Stay engaged. Okay, the history of Malvasia on the island of Crete is deep, with some experts believing the entire Malvasia family of grapes, it's a big family, evidently, most likely originated there, which makes sense to me. Evidence of winemaking on the island goes all the way back to 5000 BC, which is before even we were married. And archaeological, although it doesn't seem that way sometimes. Yes, and archaeological discoveries of ancient wine presses and Minoan palace paintings confirm that winemaking was central to early Cretan civilizations. I don't love that term, Cretan. Anyway, during the Minoan civilization, which ran from 2000 to 1400 BCE, in case you're curious, the people of Crete imported Egyptian winemaking techniques. However, the island's most significant era for Malvasia was in the Middle Ages, when it was under Venetian rule between 1212 and 1669, which a lot of people may have not known. This era was called the Candia era, because during this time period the island was known as Candia. And sweet Malvasia wines were often labeled as Malvasia di Candia and were sent all over the world. They just sent them around. I think so. But people also really just back in the day, people liked their sweet wines. Yeah. A lot of sweet wines. In fact, these wines were exported in massive quantities to major hubs like London, Paris, and Constantinople, and the trade was so dominant that Venetian wine shops themselves became known as Malvasiae. Whoa. I mean, come on. Okay. However, Malvasia from Crete was significantly impacted following the Ottoman occupation in the 17th century, during which many vineyards were uprooted or abandoned. And if you didn't know, the Ottoman Empire Empire prohibited alcohol. Ah. Right? And so by the early 19th century, production on the island had almost faded away completely. But in a story that we often tell, Carnell, it's a comeback story. Everybody loves a good comeback story. Except for Rudy. I hate that story, but that's a totally different thing. In the late 20th and early 21st century, it's more of an underdog story. In the late 20th and early 21st centuries, winemakers in Crete began rescuing near-extinct indigenous varieties. And after years of research and experimental vinification, Malvasia was officially recognized with protected designation of origin or PDO status in 2010. So pretty recently, not that old. And today, Crete is one of the few regions in Greece authorized to produce PDO Malvasia wines. And PDO can be compared to like Italian DOCG. Like it's a similar kind of thing. And while there are many dozens of Malvasian subtypes, Crete is specifically associated with two Malvasia di Candia, aromatica, a highly aromatic wine widely found on the island today, and Malvasia Bianca di Candia, often referred to as the white Malmse of Crete. It's thought to be the variety that carried the island's reputation across Europe during the Middle Ages for sweet wines. Today, Malvasia from Crete still comes in two basic forms: a dry, aromatic white wine and a sweet, sun-dried style.

Speaker 1: 14:19
Huh.

Joe: 14:20
Kind of like you and me. What? I'm aromatic and you're sweet and sun-dried. I don't.

Carmela: 14:25
That wasn't wow.

Joe: 14:27
I don't think that's a compliment to call you sun-dried. You like the sun more than I do.

Carmela: 14:32
Yeah, the dry part is what I'm worried about. I mean I don't just you know. They haven't got medications for that. I have to take a, you know, a closer look in the mirror.

Joe: 14:42
It's not anyway. Let's move on to Malvasia.

Carmela: 14:46
But then now you've drawn all this attention to it.

Joe: 14:48
I had to bring it up. It's my fault. So let's talk about Malvasia and f ⁇ ing Slovenia.

Carmela: 14:53
Whoa.

Joe: 14:53
Just to grab your attention again.

Carmela: 14:55
Just to make me mad.

Joe: 14:56
That's right. As we mentioned earlier, the history of Malvasia and Slovenia is inextricably linked to the Istrian peninsula, again, where Italy and Croatia and Slovenia connect. And the variety is known as Malvasia Istriana, or I cannot pronounce this, Istrika Malvasia, locally. Wow. And that's I I don't even know how.

Carmela: 15:17
That was good.

Joe: 15:18
I mean, I made it, I sold it.

Carmela: 15:19
Right, that's what I was just gonna say. And you should have just seen like the hand movement along with it.

Joe: 15:23
Which is exactly the way the Slovenians do it.

Carmela: 15:26
I'm sure.

Joe: 15:26
Yes. And this grape has become the signature white grape for Slovenia. The specific variety in Slovenia is genetically, I mentioned this before, genetically distinct. It is a distinct, indigenous grape, different from all the other Malvasia, with a history in the region that dates back nearly 2,000 years, which again is longer than we've been married or even dating. True. Evidence suggests that Malvasia was cultivated on the Istrian Peninsula as early as 300 AD. And remember the Venetians, Carmela? We had talked about the Venetians. Well, Venetian merchants brought vine cuttings from Greece to the Upper Adriatic, including parts of modern-day Slovenia, Croatia, and Italy full circle. Right. Wow. Despite its shared name with Greek varieties, DNA analysis. Yes, they spent time and money on DNA analysis. They've confirmed that Malvasia Istriana is unrelated to the other members of the Malvasia family. Which I guess it's kind of like when you meet somebody with the same last name and you try and figure out if you know anybody in common and you can't find a common relative.

Carmela: 16:30
You know, like that show, I forgot the name of it. Somebody you'll remember. White Lotus? No, the one where it's like, you are not the father.

Joe: 16:39
I don't know what show that is. It's just like a lot of shows.

Carmela: 16:42
It was like an Oprah show, but it wasn't, it was like a bad one. Oh. What was that guy? And they do all the testing out to make it the Jerry Springer show.

Joe: 16:51
That's right. Jerry Springer.

Carmela: 16:52
I don't know how many of you will remember Jerry Show.

Joe: 16:54
I wonder if they put Malvasia on the Jerry Springer show show.

Carmela: 16:57
I think it'd be really well watched.

Joe: 16:59
It's a bunch of grapes.

Carmela: 17:00
I don't think people will care that much. But that was really exciting. But have you ever had that experience?

Joe: 17:05
Yeah, was have you ever had that experience where maybe somebody said you are not the father? You've probably never had that experience. I have. No, I've not. I've not had that. Wait a minute. No, I don't. Not that you know about.

Carmela: 17:16
No, but were you on the Jerry Springer show?

Joe: 17:18
No, okay, but I will just say Carmela's last name, maiden name, is the same as another name of a person in the area.

Carmela: 17:26
Yeah.

Joe: 17:27
And people would always say, Are they related?

Carmela: 17:28
And it's like oh, are you related to the people blah blah blah? And I go, No, or not. But nobody really has our last names.

Joe: 17:35
No, which was why it was so weird. And and like Malvasia, that's like Malvasia. Yeah. You know, people are like, Are you the same?

Carmela: 17:42
And people are like, and the grapes are no, no, no, no, we're not related. Totally different.

Joe: 17:45
Okay. During the socialist area in Slovenia, the grapes survived by being relegated to lower frost-prone areas where other varieties struggled to grow, and it was eventually revived and elevated by producers during the 1990s. Today in Slovenia, Malvasia is primarily grown in the Primorska region, which includes Slovenian Istria, the Vivpava Valley, and Goriska Brda. None of these mean much to me today or you today, Carmela, but someday we're gonna go to Slovenia and hopefully it will mean something to us. And from a map standpoint, if you know where Venice is, there's actually a little part of Italy that kind of hooks around the Adriatic coast and touches Slovenia and is really close to Croatia. If you get a chance, take a look at a map. Do a little of your own research. Right. It's fun. Anyway, I don't know what I'm talking about. Did you know that Carmelo's brother and his girlfriend don't drink a lot of wine?

Carmela: 18:39
Right, right. So we can't really ask them about whether or not they're gonna try this in Madeira, but they are seeing bad bunny, right? And I'm sure they'll drink beer.

Joe: 18:46
And they're going to Porto, so will they drink pork? We don't know.

Carmela: 18:49
I don't know. They never asked a word about it.

Joe: 18:51
And the white pork tastes like Vinsanto. It's all coming around people. It all makes sense too. Malvasia. Okay, anyway, we mentioned this earlier, but Malvasia in Slovenia is made in a fresh aromatic style, a skin contact orange wine style, and a sweet skin to skin contact.

Carmela: 19:06
That's also another weird. Well, and that's you shouldn't be joking. You are not the father.

Joe: 19:13
Anyway, and a sweet style made from overly mature grapes, which is kind of like me. Okay, more immature grapes. Okay. Today Malvasia is one of Slovenia's most economically and cultural significant white grapes. It's considered the flagship variety of the Primorska region. Its ability to retain natural acidity in warm conditions makes it really good for producing balanced wines. And that may mean that it's actually a good white wine that could grow in a lot of different places as the climate is changing. Because wines tend as in warm climates, wines tend to lose their acidity. So if this is a white wine that can keep acidity in warm weather, that's a that's a really good thing. I'm kind of a scaled grape there. That's right. That's right. So that gives you a little background on this wine based on what we're gonna be drinking today. So on that note, I think it's time to learn a little bit more about the specific wines we're drinking today. What do you say, Carmelo? Let's do it. Okay, so as usual, the wines we have chosen for this episode are under $25, and they should be relatively easy to find because I bought them both at wine.com. Malvasia is definitely findable, but you're gonna have to look around and ask around a bit. Again, I found these wines on wine.com, so there's Malvasia out there, but look for shops with good wine sections and maybe go to some natural wine stores to see if you can find that Slovenian orange Malvasia. And then as always, go to your local wine merchant and they'll be more than happy to help you find a Malvasia. We always say that. The first wine we're gonna drink is the 2022 Dulofus Malvasia femina.

Carmela: 20:45
It's like you're swearing, cussing over there.

Joe: 20:48
And this one comes from Crete in Greece, so right from the original home. And this wine actually got a 91 rating from Wine Enthusiast. Nice. And I think I found the text sheet for this vintage, but I'm not 100% sure because there wasn't an actual vintage date on the text sheet. So maybe we have to take some of it with a grain of salt. But here's what they said the winery said they harvest the wine by hand and ferment in stainless steel tanks at low temperatures to keep the wine fresh. And we've said this before that for white wine, cold fermentation really helps keep things like the aromatics of the wine and the acidity in the wine really well. So that's why they do a cold fermentation. They also mentioned that the wine is racked off the lees and put back into stainless steel tanks. What this means is that after they ferment the wine, they pump the wine out into a clean stainless. No, just pump it out. They just pump it out, pump it, pump it. And they pump the wine out into clean stainless steel containers so that the wine is no longer exposed to the lees, which the lees, again, is the dead yeast from the fermentation process. Sometimes winemakers want to keep wines on the lees because it adds some creaminess and flavor. And sometimes when you want a real crisp, acidic wine. Wine, you're like, get the leaves out of there.

unknown: 22:02
Wow.

Joe: 22:03
And I'm sorry if your name's Lee.

Carmela: 22:04
Ooh.

Joe: 22:05
We don't want you out of there.

Carmela: 22:06
Just no, no. Don't take it personally, Lee.

Joe: 22:09
Unless there's a multiple Lees.

Carmela: 22:10
Right.

Joe: 22:11
Then they say they keep the wine in the stainless steel tanks for a short time and then bottle it, which is nice. Technically, the grapes are Malvasia di Candia Aromatica. They use drip vine irrigation. The vines are located about 1200 feet above sea level. And they use the double cordon Royat Vine Training System, one of my favorites, where they allow the grape vines to kind of split into two directions like a T, and then they train the vines to follow the wire or string like a dog. And I'll just follow it. And the purpose is to make the grape bunches more out in the open to reduce the risk of disease or rot so you know air can get through and all that kind of stuff. And also to make it easier to harvest. And the winery has been in the family for three generations. They're focusing more and more on local varietals. The winemaker's name is Nikos, who's the grandson of the original founder. And he actually studied analogy in Piedmont, Italy, where they make some of our favorite, favorite wines. Wow. So we'll see if this has any relation maybe to agave, which we love. We love a good Gavi. The next wine we're going to drink is the 2024 Rodica Malvasia. And actually, on the label, the winery uses the Slovenian spelling of Malvagia. And technically, the grape is Malvasia Istriana, and the winery is located in Istria. I couldn't find any ratings for this wine, but there was a tech sheet that I think covers this vintage, so we're going to go for it. The grapes are certified organic, which is a, if you, if that's important to you, that's a great thing to know. The winery says that every second row of the vineyard is empty and planted with grass. Oh, wow. Yeah, they also say they only use natural fertilizer, which means poo-poo. Ooh. From from animal manure.

Carmela: 23:47
That's the way to do it.

Joe: 23:48
That's the way to do it. And the vineyards, listen to this, the vineyards are worked without irrigation, so they don't irrigate, which is like a lot of water stress. It's making me thirsty, kind of thinking about it. Uh when making the wine, they say that after destemming the grapes, uh, they are macerated with the pulp and skins for just a few hours, which is good because you, again, you can go blind if you macerate too long. And spontaneous fermentation just begins. Woohoo! And then the wine is then transferred into stainless steel tanks where it finishes fermentation, and up to 25% of the wine is matured for six months in 2,500 liter barrels and then blended in stainless steel tanks and bottled unfiltered. So this is probably going to be a little bit of a different style, Carmelo, because they are introducing some oak into the process. Now, Slovenian oak tends to be pretty light, and they tend to use Slovenian oak as opposed to Slavonian oak, those are two different things, for these really large oak barrels. And that oak is said, or that wood is said to add a little spice and some toastiness, but it's not going to be vanilla or cedar. And the fact that they're huge barrels makes the imparting of oak flavor really low. So maybe it'll be a little different style because they do age it for a little bit, so at least some of it in these big oak barrels, more to get some oxygen to some of the wine, but it probably won't be oaky. It may have a little more mouthfeel though to it. The winery says the vineyard is about five kilometers from the Adriatic Sea in the Gulf of Trieste. They're at about the same level as the wine from Crete at about a thousand feet above sea level. And they say the nights are cool and there's a constant breeze, which help keep the vineyards well ventilated.

Carmela: 25:27
Sounds lovely.

Joe: 25:28
I would need that too, because we need some ventilation.

Carmela: 25:31
Yeah.

Joe: 25:31
But you know what, Carmela? That's enough information. I think it's time to get drinking. I'm down. So if you have a malvasia, and it could be one of the many, many varieties, but if you have any malvasia, drink along with us. See if you agree with our tasting notes and let us know. And we'll be right back. Okay. Okay, we're back and we're ready to try our first wine. This is the Dulofatus Malvasia Femina. It's from Crete, Greece. It's a 2022 vintage, $19.97 at wine.com, 13% alcohol, 100% Malvasia. Wine Enthusiast gave it a 91 and Vivino gave it a 3.9. But the first thing I want to just call out is the bottle. Yeah. Because it's kind of this pretty, like all sauce, long, thin bottle, like German wine bottle.

Carmela: 26:17
It's very pretty and it's very colorful. I like everything from the little, you know, foil wrap all the way down. Yeah. It's just beautiful.

Joe: 26:26
And it's a screw cap.

Carmela: 26:27
So hard to go wrong with that.

Joe: 26:30
All right, Carnel, let's talk about the color.

Carmela: 26:32
Um, it is it's light, but it's not like it's straw, probably.

Joe: 26:37
Would you say lemony yellow or more straw?

Carmela: 26:39
Sure, sure. No, I mean, uh, yeah, I think lemony too.

Joe: 26:43
Yeah.

Carmela: 26:43
I don't think that they're too different from each other.

Joe: 26:45
No, it's it's a nice.

Carmela: 26:46
You think it's a little darker than straw?

Joe: 26:48
A little bit, maybe, but it's a light, it's a very pretty light wine. Okay, we're gonna sm Carmel's already started to smell it. So uh let's see what we're smelling.

Speaker 2: 26:58
Hmm. Ooh.

Joe: 26:59
It's funny, I got probably the same thing as you. It's almost a little glue or something like that.

Carmela: 27:03
Yeah, a little bit of gasoline, but I am getting some peach on it.

Joe: 27:07
100% peach.

Carmela: 27:09
I mean, almost like a fuzzy peach, though.

Joe: 27:10
Yeah. In fact, uh some of me feels like the smell might be like the peach pit.

Carmela: 27:15
Oh you know, yeah, okay.

Joe: 27:18
But I'm totally with you. I'm getting peach, maybe a little bit of apple, like green apple.

Carmela: 27:23
Yeah, I mean, I the first whiff I had was peach, but then I'm starting to smell that little bit of, you know, glue, gasoline, kerosene type of thing.

Joe: 27:30
Yeah, I got the glue right away.

Carmela: 27:32
I mean, there's a little citrus on it too, a little like lemon.

Joe: 27:35
Or would you say maybe even pineapple? Or guava?

Carmela: 27:40
Guava, like poggy?

Joe: 27:42
Yeah, like I'm thinking more tropical, like tropical kind of fruit.

Carmela: 27:45
Yeah, I think I think I can get it.

Joe: 27:47
Yeah, in fact, I think I'm getting a lot of tropical fruit now that I smell it.

Carmela: 27:51
It's nice.

Joe: 27:52
It's nice smelling. Okay, well, let's taste it and see what we think.

Carmela: 27:57
Ooh. Ooh, it's kind of pithy. Um, kind of like lemon pith.

Joe: 28:01
Yeah, lemon or lime. I'm thinking maybe even a little bit more lime on the front. It almost tastes like maybe we've been talking about it too much, but like a beer with a lime in it.

Carmela: 28:09
Oh my god, like a corona.

Joe: 28:11
Yeah, with a little salt too. It is a little salty. It is a little salty. Don't you get a little bit of now that I'm like, it's like a you know, like a it is a little hoppy almost. Yeah, and salty. I think it's salty.

Carmela: 28:22
Yes, yeah. But there is, there's something bitter on it that is kind of giving you that beer impression.

Joe: 28:30
Totally. And it's not like we were smelling peach and nectarine and guava or whatever.

Carmela: 28:35
It's not sweet.

Joe: 28:36
It the taste isn't there.

Carmela: 28:37
It's really much more lime, you're right, pith, more savory of a I'm not getting a super sweet wine. I thought we were looking for that, but it's all the things that we are smelling, was almost indicating it could have a little bit of sweetness.

Joe: 28:50
Yeah, but I don't know, briny. To me, it's briny.

Carmela: 28:54
It's nice. Good for food. It's a great food wine.

Joe: 28:57
Well, let's talk about food.

Carmela: 28:58
Well, I mean, you could do a lot with this.

Joe: 29:00
I think so too.

Carmela: 29:01
Yeah, I mean, I could see this as a really fun cocktail like appetizer wine.

Joe: 29:06
Cheeses. Yes. Like stinky cheeses.

Carmela: 29:09
Yep, yep, and uh creamy cheese.

Joe: 29:10
I think all sorts of cheeses.

Carmela: 29:12
Right, or like a baked brie would be really good. Or oh, or um or cheese crackers.

Joe: 29:18
Cheese.

Carmela: 29:19
Cheese and crackers. Cheese and crackers, or like a back to like having like something bready, like a baked brie. You could also do like a puff, like those little puff flaked pastry filled with like cheese again, or spinach and cheese. Spinach. I think it would be really nice.

Joe: 29:34
I agree. But I also think you could do spicy foods with this. I think it'd be really nice with like salty food, Indian foods, French fries, fish and chips.

Carmela: 29:43
Yeah, yeah. It's kind of like I I mean, it's not that it's not um sophisticated, but it is something I think is pretty versatile.

Joe: 29:51
Yeah, I mean, I think it's I it's got some complexity to it, maybe more on the smell than in the taste, but there's something really interesting about the taste that I like. That saltiness I kind of like. I'm kind of digging that.

Carmela: 30:02
It's pretty. I mean, the bottle looks like a party wine.

Joe: 30:06
It does.

Carmela: 30:07
You know, like even like a brunch.

Joe: 30:09
But a good party, like a nice party, not like uh you get naked.

Carmela: 30:13
At an after hours party. No, no, no. I wasn't even thinking that. You know, but what made you think t that we needed to clear that one up?

Joe: 30:19
I don't know, because we re-watched White Lotus the second season with our son last night. The whole season. No, but I mean it just made me think about it. It's very uncomfortable sometimes to watch White Lotus with your children even when they're adults.

Carmela: 30:30
And the problem is that they do, and that episode, the last one, they're drinking a lot of white wine.

Joe: 30:35
Oh, yeah, they are. In fact, Tanya says, Can I have more white wine?

Carmela: 30:38
Right, and they give her like a couple of glasses. I wonder what she was drinking. She was in Sicily.

Joe: 30:43
Yeah, so maybe Aetna Bianco.

Carmela: 30:46
Maybe. Anyway.

Joe: 30:47
Let's uh rate this wine. As a reminder on a rating scale, we rate it on a scale of one to ten, we don't give half points. Seven and above means we're gonna buy it. And four below means we're gonna pour it down the sink. Five or six means we're gonna drink it. We're gonna finish it. Thank you for serving it to us, white lotus. But we are not going to buy it, and we're not going in the boat with that guy because you're gonna kill us.

Carmela: 31:06
I am no one near a boat in Sicily. Exactly. Uh-huh.

Joe: 31:10
So, what rating are you gonna give this wine?

Carmela: 31:12
I'm giving it a seven.

Joe: 31:13
Really?

Carmela: 31:13
Yeah. I mean, I like it, but I'm not sure if it's gonna be a like a go-to for me.

Joe: 31:20
Yeah. Now, ladies and gentlemen, I'm not challenging her rating. I'm just thinking, as I tasted it again, it kind of warms up. I am getting a little bit more of that tropical fruit.

Carmela: 31:28
You know, you're liking it.

Joe: 31:29
I like it. I'm gonna give it an eight. I like it. I I don't know. There's something about it's kind of it's got a little bit of like tartness and funkiness and lots of flavors and the salt, and it's just it's doing it for me. It's doing it for me. I love that flavor. It's like a it's like a woman that you just is getting a little saltier and spicier as she gets older.

Carmela: 31:51
Woman.

Joe: 31:52
I don't know. Maybe one that has a headphone on right now. But anyway, we're gonna take a break and we're gonna try our next wine. Okay. Okay, we're back and we're ready to try our next wine. This is the Rodica Malvasia. It's from Istria, Slovenia. It's a 2024 vintage, $21.97 at wine.com. 12.5% alcohol, 100% Malvasia. No professional ratings that I could find, but the Vino had a 4.2, which is a pretty high rating. But let's talk about the bottle really quick. Totally different bottle, very pretty.

Carmela: 32:27
Yeah, pretty dark glass.

Joe: 32:29
Where the first one was like that long, thin, clear glass. This is like a dark glass. Bulky.

Carmela: 32:34
It's kind of a bulky bottle.

Joe: 32:36
It's more like a Chardonnay kind of bottle, maybe even a Pinot kind of bottle with those those long shoulders. But it's anyway, the color of the wine is totally different, too.

Carmela: 32:45
And you know what I love about it is on the label, there's a sun and a moon, and it looks like the sun. So it kind of reminded me of like a sunset, like part, you know, it's a Criola sun color. Right.

Joe: 32:58
Almost orangey.

Carmela: 32:59
Yeah, I was gonna say it's there's like a hint, there is a hint of orange, which could be that's why it feels like a sunset water.

Joe: 33:04
You know what the color is? Khaki.

Carmela: 33:06
Uh-huh.

Joe: 33:07
It's kind of khaki.

Speaker 3: 33:08
I guess so.

Joe: 33:08
You know, like the yellow khaki. You know, there's different flavors of khaki.

Speaker 3: 33:11
Right.

Joe: 33:12
You know, there's kind of a yellowy, orangey kind of khaki.

unknown: 33:15
Yeah.

Joe: 33:15
It's not, it's not a brown khaki, it's like a in a funny, funny.

Carmela: 33:18
Okay, yeah. All right. It's dark, it's way darker than the other one. I guess. Anyway.

Joe: 33:22
All right, let's smell it. See, she didn't she didn't go for the khaki. It's it's different. It's uh not super aromatic. Like the first one was very aromatic, like popping out of the glass. They call that the nerds call that lifted when it just comes out of the glass into your nose.

Carmela: 33:38
Something spicy on this.

Joe: 33:39
Spicy.

Carmela: 33:40
I don't know. I mean, it's a little herby too. Like um, something like thyme or rosemary. Oh wow. I don't know. A little bit, but um, a little hint of like cinnamon or something.

Joe: 33:52
I'm getting a little cinnamon. Uh you know what I'm getting? Like a spiced orange.

Carmela: 33:56
Oh, okay. I I maybe that's kind of one like you know what? When they put like cur uh, what do they call? Anise, uh, anise.

Joe: 34:04
Mm-hmm. Anis.

Carmela: 34:05
Anis, anise, I don't know, whatever you want to call it. But they put that inside drinks, you know, to kind of give it that starry knees. You're right. Starry taste. I agree with you. Uh-huh. Okay.

Joe: 34:17
But a little bit, it's like it's hard to pull the fruit out of it. Um, it's like a little orange. Maybe there's a little bit of like pear or something.

Carmela: 34:24
It's a little creamy.

Joe: 34:26
Yeah. And this is the one. Remember, they put it in oak. Now the 25% in the really big oak barrel, so maybe a little bit of that spiciness or creaminess is coming out.

Carmela: 34:35
It's kind of like an orange vanilla creamy, almost like those um vanilla orange sherbet ice cream snacks. You know?

Joe: 34:47
Yeah, there's something, you're right, there's spiciness on it. Maybe even like a pie filling.

Speaker 3: 34:51
Ooh.

Joe: 34:52
Or like a it's cocktail-y, kind of smells a little bit like a cocktail. Okay, well, let's taste it and see what you think. Boy, the taste to me is it's more melony. It's like a melon, like cantaloupe melon. Okay, yeah. That's what I was getting. Like a little pithy too, like a little rind on the melon, but almost orange too. Like now I'm getting a lot of orange on the aftertaste.

Carmela: 35:14
Yeah, I think I that it's a little orangey. Again, it's sort of a creamy, like a like an orange Julius. Yeah. Or a cream sickle.

Joe: 35:22
I'm I'm wondering a little bit like blood orange, like a specific type of orange, like a richer, deeper kind of orange.

Carmela: 35:29
Yeah, it's nice.

Joe: 35:30
I think it's really nice.

Carmela: 35:32
Very subtle. Like it's not the other one had a little more complexity to it.

Joe: 35:36
This is smoother, a little more austere, a little bit more like in the background.

Carmela: 35:41
Yeah, I agree.

Joe: 35:42
Spicy.

Carmela: 35:43
Yeah, I yeah. I for some reason I'm getting I'm getting the spice on the taste.

Joe: 35:47
Clove, definitely getting like clove on the taste. And you know that when did you say herb on this one? Yes. So I'm getting herbs. I'm getting like rosemary or like you said, tarragon or thyme or even like I'm getting herb on it.

Carmela: 36:02
Yeah, yes, I know I am too.

Joe: 36:03
Not Herbie the Love Bug, but but maybe. Maybe.

Carmela: 36:07
Who knows?

Joe: 36:08
Huh? Wow. It's it's good. It's so different. What are you gonna eat with this? This one's different to me. I mean, I would still do spicy foods. I think it would be really nice with spicy foods. I think it would be really interesting with like sushi.

Speaker 3: 36:20
Mmm.

Joe: 36:21
Especially like a sushi roll or spicy sushi. I think it'd be good. You know what it'd be really good with now that I'm thinking about like din tai feng. Like dumplings. And I think it'd be really good. There's something about hot foods, not just spicy foods, but like warm foods.

Speaker 4: 36:38
Like even ramen.

Joe: 36:40
Yes, I think it'd be great.

Speaker 4: 36:41
Ramen would be really good with this.

Joe: 36:43
Yeah.

Speaker 4: 36:43
Something with the salt.

Joe: 36:44
Chicken teriyaki. We had that meal the other night, you know, went to the restaurant in Fremont, and we had nice. You had your poke bowl. Would you have it with a poke bowl? For sure. Yeah, it's nice. Like, I think it'd be really nice with that sesame kind of tanginess.

Carmela: 36:58
Kind of earthy taste with this with this wine.

Joe: 37:01
Yeah, and I think it'd be great with like chicken, grilled chicken, something even a little like chicken teriyaki would be really nice. We really do. Tempura. It'd be this is a good Asian food wine, I feel like.

Carmela: 37:12
Ooh, tempura. Well, we're having butter chicken tonight.

Joe: 37:16
I think I think either of these wines would be great with butter chicken. Okay. This this one is more subdued though. It's more, it's a more laid-back wine.

Carmela: 37:23
A little more of a one note, like consistent tasting.

Joe: 37:27
But nice. Like I like it. Okay, so what rating are you are you gonna give them?

Carmela: 37:31
I think I'm gonna give this one a seven as well.

Joe: 37:32
I'm giving this one a seven too. I I like it. I'm on the verge of a six because it's not like knocking your socks off. Not knocking my socks off, but I'm liking it. So I would buy it. I'd serve it to people. I think it's interesting and different, and the bottle's great, and it's it'd be a great gift wine. Yeah. So, question for you, because I think I know already, but what for me, but which one of these are you drinking tonight? Are you finishing tonight?

Carmela: 37:57
I think I'm gonna go with this second one.

Joe: 38:00
I like it because I had the first one rated higher, and I think I will drink that one tonight. We're not gonna fight. We're gonna be nice.

Carmela: 38:09
Figure it out. No, not even. We do that. You know, we do that.

Joe: 38:12
We most things we we decide by arm wrestling.

Carmela: 38:14
Yeah, yeah.

Joe: 38:15
You'd be surprised how close it is. Right.

Carmela: 38:18
And how we're pretty much we might as well toss a coin. We're pretty why don't why haven't we ever done that?

Joe: 38:23
Instead of arm wrestling? I don't know. I don't know.

Carmela: 38:25
Okay, that's what we'll do next.

Joe: 38:27
Okay. Well, uh, let's talk about if we nailed the taste profiles from Malvasia. Now, that there's it's hard to give a general taste profile because it depends a lot on where it's from, and we can just tell you from these two, it's there's a lot of differences. Dry styles from Crete tend to be aromatic. That was definitely aromatic. Flowers like honeysuckle, jasmine, white flowers. The palate will have peach, apricot, tropical fruits, guava, sometimes low in acidity, round mouthfield, sometimes described as oily. I don't think it was oily.

Speaker 4: 38:55
Not the first one.

Joe: 38:56
And dry Slovenian malvasia tends to have some similarities, such as white peach, citrus. We got a lot of citrus, acacia blossom, and linden flowers, which have like a citrus honey scent.

Carmela: 39:08
Oh honey, I like that.

Joe: 39:09
Yeah. I can taste honey is good. Chalky minerality and salinity. I think the first one had so much salinity. The Dufacus Malvasia. The winery says light golden color, followed by attractive aroma, enchanting aroma as reminiscent of lemon blossom, jasmine, and some exotic fruits like passion fruit or mango, dry flavor, refreshing acidity, long aftertaste. Wine enthusiast says a jolt of Cretan sunshine in a glass, freshly squeezed lemon and tangerine. Headline this pale straw-colored malvasia. Each sip is similarly bright with a cornucopia of citrus juices and zests.

Carmela: 39:44
Oh wow, just include them all.

Joe: 39:45
Yeah. Offset by quietly sophisticated mineral notes.

Carmela: 39:48
Okay.

Joe: 39:49
So mineral, but they didn't specifically talk about the brininess. I think we were getting a lot of brininess. For the rhotica, the winery says the nose offers aromas of wildflowers and peach, medium-bodied. I agree with that. Balanced acidity, bright fruitiness, elegant and refreshing. MYSA Natural Wine says aromas of white flowers, peach, and pineapple with a touch of green tea.

Carmela: 40:10
Oh, okay.

Joe: 40:11
Do you like that one? Well, we weren't getting a lot of herbs.

Carmela: 40:13
Right. That's where I think that might have been coming from.

Joe: 40:15
Matcha. Little matcha.

Carmela: 40:16
Right.

Joe: 40:17
Okay, Carmela, verdict on Malvasia.

Carmela: 40:20
I am happy with it. I think we should start drinking more of it.

Joe: 40:24
Yeah. I I'm I like it.

Carmela: 40:25
And I'm thinking about that trip you promised.

Joe: 40:27
To Slovenia. I want to go to Slovenia. I want to go to Crete. I want to go to Crete. We've never been to Crete. No. We've never been to Greece together.

Carmela: 40:34
Never.

Joe: 40:35
Except for the musical. We've been to the musical. A number of times. Yeah. But that's different.

Carmela: 40:39
Yeah.

Joe: 40:39
They don't serve as much wine there.

Carmela: 40:41
No.

Joe: 40:41
I wish they would. Yeah. Anyway, no, I'm down. I I really like it. I think it's a great wine.

Carmela: 40:46
Suggestion box. We'll just say, hey, how about I'm a little more? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I like it.

Joe: 40:51
Okay. And now it's time to head over to our news desk so that we can get you know what? My type. I've had a typo on my show notes for forever. It says new desk. I don't have a new desk. It's a news desk.

Carmela: 41:02
Did you buy a new desk?

Joe: 41:03
I need to buy one. No, not for me, but for our son. So that we can cover. Let's go to our news desk so that we can cover the wine in the news this week segment. Wine in the news this week. This week, our wine in the news. Someday we're gonna do a like a bloopers so that people can hear the things that we say. This week, our wine in the news comes to us from Anna Sulkenstern, writing for wealth management. And the article is called Estate Dispute Sees Potentially Largest Sanctions Imposed for AI related misconduct.

Speaker 3: 41:38
Whoa.

Joe: 41:39
It's getting into everything. Okay, Carmilla, it keeps happening because dummies keep using AI to write stuff for them. And I'll just say that we don't do that.

Carmela: 41:48
No.

Joe: 41:48
The short version of the story we really don't. We are not AI. We're not one of those fake podcasts.

Carmela: 41:54
I hope you're not AI. Mary AI.

Joe: 41:59
Who knows? Okay, the short version of the story is this.

Carmela: 42:02
Are you AI?

Joe: 42:02
I hope not. A woman uh might be. A woman tried to sue two of her brothers over the family winery, and the lawyer submitted 15 fake AI-generated court cases to the judge who was not amused. So here's the full story. It starts in the town of Jacksonville, Oregon, where our good friends the Rosens live, by the way. And I wonder if they know the story of these people.

Carmela: 42:25
I don't know.

Joe: 42:25
We're gonna axe them. The family is the Wisnowskys, and their mother owned Valley View Winery in Jacksonville, Oregon. There's four siblings in the fish. So that's she had four children. That's what that means. Oh there's Robert, Joanne, Mark, and Michael. Mark and Michael are the younger brothers, and they're the ones who had been running the winery for decades. Now, back in 2016, the mother changed her estate plan to allow the brothers to buy out their siblings' interest when she died so they could keep running the winery. But Joanne, not so happy about it. So in 2019, Joanne had her mother file a competing estate plan, one that would give the winery to Joanne and Robert, the older brother, instead. Then in 2021, Joanne sued her brothers for $12 million, accusing them of manipulating their mother in the earlier estate agreements. The brothers countersued the same year. Then in 2023, their mother died, and by the way, at some point she had been showing signs of dementia. As the lawsuit moved forward, Joanne's legal team submitted briefs to the judge containing 15 AI-generated fake case citations and eight fabricated quotations. Some of the cases they cited didn't exist at all. Others cited real court opinions, but with quotes that were made up. When the brothers' legal team pointed out the fake citations, the filings kept coming anyway over five months and across three separate briefs. So even after getting caught, they never stopped. The judge found that Joanne herself had written the briefs using AI software and hand. Them to her legal team to submit. He dismissed her claims entirely with prejudice, meaning she could not bring them again, and imposed over $100,000 in fines and attorney fees to her attorney. Experts believe this is the largest sanction ever imposed for AI-related errors in U.S. legal history. One additional interesting twist to the story, Carmilla, the lawyer Joanne ended up with was a man named Stephen Brigandy, who's a San Diego attorney. Now remember, this is in Oregon. And his previous career highlight was serving as a corporate lawyer for Jack in the Box. But anyway, he agreed to take Joanne's case for free.

Carmela: 44:37
What?

Joe: 44:37
Because his son is dating Joanne's daughter.

Carmela: 44:40
Oh my goodness.

Joe: 44:42
Here's the best part of this whole thing.

Carmela: 44:43
Hmm.

Joe: 44:44
Joanne's gonna appeal.

Carmela: 44:46
I mean And it just keeps on going.

Joe: 44:49
Now there's there is other stuff that I uh the other crazy stuff in here that there's too much to cover. I have links to articles in our show notes. But Carmela, Carmela, what do you think? What are you what are your I I don't have a specific question. I don't know. What do you think? I mean, Wills.

Carmela: 45:02
I wasn't say that it just gets in the way. Things just go sideways. So just be careful. Just beware. This is a beware type of lesson.

Joe: 45:13
Beware and take care.

Carmela: 45:15
Right.

Joe: 45:15
Yeah, I agree. Okay, we have some listener shout-outs this week. We we love it when you reach out to us. We we love it when you tell us what's going on and what you think. So this week, Timmy reached out again. He sent us a wine in the news article on tariffs, but I didn't use it this week, Timmy. I'm sorry, but keep the stories coming. Maybe we'll use it in the future. Adrian reached back out to us and she talked about her German wine class at the Philadelphia wine schools.

Speaker 3: 45:39
Oh, cool.

Joe: 45:40
And she got stiffed. Remember, she was gonna do that Vinya Mardi Sauvignon Blanc that used sake yeast. Well, she ordered it and then they canceled the order.

Carmela: 45:50
Oh, weird.

Joe: 45:51
Yeah, wherever she was buying it from.

Carmela: 45:52
Did they give an excuse for it?

Joe: 45:54
No, they're just lame. So we're gonna see if we can find it. She's gonna see if she can find it. And Carmela, by the way, she says that we make her laugh.

Carmela: 46:01
Oh, good.

Joe: 46:02
So I told her it's sometimes I'm not sure Carmela thinks that we make other people laugh, that maybe we think we just make ourselves laugh. Or you make yourself laugh. Or when I talk about maceration. Anyway, and then Hassini was really happy that we did the Frappato episode because she's going to Sicily.

Carmela: 46:18
Oh what?

Joe: 46:19
And one of the places she's going is Teromina.

Carmela: 46:21
Oh, you can watch the white lotus.

Joe: 46:24
I hope so, but I told her to tell us all about it when she's back. Anyway, here's some wines coming up in future episodes in case you want to drink along with us. And if you go to our show notes, you can see the exact wines, the vintages, even some links to buy them if you want. Two buck chuck. We have uh Chardonnay and Cabernet Sauvignon from 2023. We have some Lebanese wines, we have Italian San Giovese, but not Chianti, some Alsace Pinot Gris, some Kirkland Bordeaux, including the 2023 Paliac and the 2023 San Julien. Uh, we also have the 2024 Kirkland Chateauneuf de Pop and the 2025 Kirkland Moscotto di Asti. So we'll do those in future episodes. But with that, we're gonna sign off. So thank you for listening to us and supporting our show. Remember, we buy all of our own wine, we do all the writing, we're not AI, and we do all the recording and editing to bring you a show every week because we love doing it. Our small, tiny little ask of you is that you please follow or subscribe to our podcast and please leave us a nice five-star rating and review to help us grow listeners. And again, thank you to everybody who's already done that. Follow us on Instagram and Blue Sky and TikTok at the WinePair Podcast. Contact us on our website, thewinepairpodcast.com. You can sign up for our email newsletter there, and you can visit our shop wine section where we list and give links to buy the wines that we rate as buys in every episode. And it's a good way to kind of keep track of the wines that we've tasted. And we want to make content that you care about and you like, so send us a note or DM us, follow us at the store, give us some feedback, let us know if there's wines you want us to try or wine-making areas of the world that you're curious about, and we'll take care of it. You can always reach out to us at Joe at the winepairpodcast.com. But with that, we're gonna sign off. So thank you once again. We'll see you next time. And as we like to say, life is short, so stop drinking shitty wine. Bye bye.

Speaker 1: 48:07
Bye bye, and I'm gonna do it.