Is Two Buck Chuck Actually Bad, or Is That Just Wine Snob Talk?

Show Notes

Episode #219: Is Two Buck Chuck Actually Bad, or Is That Just Wine Snob Talk?  00:00

________________________

KEY QUESTIONS

• Is Two Buck Chuck actually worth buying?
• What does Charles Shaw Chardonnay taste like?
• What does Charles Shaw Cabernet Sauvignon taste like?
• How does Two Buck Chuck compare to more expensive wines?
• What food pairs well with Charles Shaw wine?
• Why is Two Buck Chuck so cheap?
• Is Charles Shaw wine good quality?

Episode Overview and First Thoughts on Wine Two Buck Chuck 00:38
Hello fellow Cabernaysayers! And welcome to The Wine Pair Podcast. I’m Joe, your sommelier of reasonably priced wine, and this is my wife and my wine pairing partner in crime, Carmela. And we are The Wine Pair! 

If you're new to our podcast, here's what we do: Every week we buy wines under $25 with our own money, taste them, and give you our brutally honest opinion on whether they're worth buying. Nobody pays us to review specific wines, we don't accept free bottles from wineries, and we're not afraid to call out a bad wine when we taste one. Decanter Magazine calls us fun, irreverent, chatty, and entertaining - so if that sounds like your vibe, welcome to our tribe of wine lovers.

And, yes, once again the name for tribe this week came from Timmy. If you have a tribe name send us a note or DM us and we’ll ask you if you want to be on the podcast. 

Carmela, today we are going to answer a question that many people want to know, and what many people already have a strong opinion on, which is why it is so fun, and that is - is Two Buck Chuck, AKA Charles Shaw wine found at Trader Joe’s, any good or not? 

To be honest, this wine is a bit of a departure for our podcast. Yes, it is true that we focus on wines that are under $25 and relatively easy to find, but we are more than that - we try to focus on wines that are also good, are under the radar, and often come from places and grapes you have never heard of before so we can expand your wine horizons. 

However, when we look at the interwebs and the Google machine, what I can tell you, unequivocally, is that FAR more people search for and come to our website and podcast to learn about the big brands that we generally don’t cover, like Meiomi and Josh and Charles Shaw and Layer Cake, than come to find out about White Rioja or Xinmavro or Valpolicella. Yes, we think those wines are important to know about and learn about and taste and maybe more important than Two Buck Chuck because they are less often marketed or exposed to the average consumer, but we do also feel it is valuable for us to help steer you in the right direction about wines that you might run into or that your family and friends drink so that you can see what we think and then make up your own mind.

And, we will try as honestly and truthfully as we can, to not pre-bias our tasting. In other words, we are going to try as hard as we can to give you a review of the wines based on their taste and merits, rather than on the opinion of wine snobs or the general public. We are not doing this as a joke. This is about our taste and our opinion, and we always promise to be honest and sincere when we taste and review wines so that you can rely on us. And, we just got some great feedback from a listener which we will talk more about later, but our goal is not to yuck your yum or make you feel bad for liking a wine we may not like. Our goal is just to be honest with you, and then you make up your own mind.

Now, we are going to spend some time talking about Charles Shaw wines, why they are popular, how they are made, and why they became a rage before we get to our tasting section. 

And, so let’s start off with one thing you may be curious about, and that is, why is Two Buck Chuck such a sensation? Because people are certainly buying it, and many of those people do like it, and it has been around for a long time. Charles Shaw wines have been made since 1979, and they debuted at Trader Joe’s in 2002, so almost 25 years ago, and they are still going strong. So, there’s something to it. On a side note fact that you can put in your brain box, Two Buck Chuck was an instant success at Trader Joe’s, and just one year after they started selling it, they had already sold 60 million bottles!

Here are some reasons why Two Buck Chuck became, and has stayed, popular.

• Extreme Affordability: The brand’s defining feature was its $1.99 price point when it debuted at Trader Joe’s in 2002. Wine is often viewed as a luxury item, and Charles Shaw was sold for less than most bottled waters. This low cost lowered the barrier to entry for casual consumers and college students, allowing people to buy it in bulk for parties or everyday consumption without financial stress.
• High Quality-to-Price Ratio: While critics often debate its true quality, many consumers and professionals find the wine to be surprisingly drinkable for the price.
• Awards: Early on, the wine won prizes in wine competitions, which helped it gain a more solid reputation. The 2002 Shiraz won a double gold medal at the 28th Annual International Eastern Wine Competition, beating out over 2,300 other wines, and the 2005 Chardonnay was named "Best Chardonnay from California" at the 2007 California State Fair, receiving 98 points and a double gold.
• Good Marketing: The nickname "Two Buck Chuck" became a cultural icon that pretty much everyone knows. The name was reportedly coined by a Trader Joe’s employee in an internet chat room and quickly went viral. The nickname gave the brand an easy to connect with identity that resonated with shoppers.
• Anti-Snob Appeal: The wine's creator, Fred Franzia, intentionally marketed the brand as a rejection of the pretentiousness and high markups associated with Napa Valley. He famously argued that no one should pay more than $10 for a bottle of wine and characterized high-priced competitors as "overcharging.”  A way to stick it to the snobs
• Trader Joe’s Affect: The wine is sold exclusively at Trader Joe’s which has a cult-like following that often feels like a "treasure hunt” Many people just swear by products that TJ’s sells.
• Mythology and Urban Myths: Due to its popularity, a number of urban myths and legends popped up like that Charles Shaw was selling the wine for $2 out of spite following a bitter divorce. Or that Bronco Wine Co. which owns the brand bought a bankrupt prestige label for only $27,000 and turned it into a billion-bottle success story - while that second story is true, they bought the brand name, but did not make the same wines that the original Charles Shaw made which were quite prestigious. And we’ll talk a little more about that in a bit. 

So, while it can be easy to sort of smugly shrug off the wine, it is undoubtedly still popular, has introduced a lot of people to wine, and is a wine that many people like. Again, we are not here to yuck anybody’s yum, and we will try and be honest and real about how we feel.

And so today, we are putting our taste buds to the test, and we are tasting and reviewing two 2023 Charles Shaw wines, one the Cabernet Sauvignon and the other the Chardonnay to see if we think either of both of them are worth your hard earned money,

But first . . . we have to do our shameless plug.

Thank you for listening to us and for supporting our show, and know that we buy all of the wine we taste and review every week so that we can give you real and honest reviews. If you like what you’re hearing, please subscribe to our podcast and leave us a five star rating and review so we can grow listeners.

We also love to hear from you and we always respond so you can follow us on Instagram and Bluesky at thewinepairpodcast. You can contact us on our website thewinepairpodcast.com, and you can sign up for our email newsletter there and you can also send us a note at joe@thewinepairpodcast.com and let us know about wines your want us to review or just shoot the breeze, we love chatting it up.

And, as we do every week, we’ll tell you someone we think you should recommend The Wine Pair Podcast to - because the best way for us to grow listeners is when you tell your family and friends about us - and this week, we want you to recommend us to anyone who is a Trader Joe’s fan, especially if they are  Trader Joe’s super fan, because they may be really interested in this episode, and there are a lot of them out there!


Topic: WTF is Two Buck Chuck AKA Charles Shaw Wine? 13:17

Have you ever walked into a Trader Joe’s, seen the big wall of Charles Shaw wine, and wondered why so many people buy it or if you should buy some just because?

Well, there are audiences that the wine caters to, and these are some of the audiences that you may or may feel you fall into.

• The “Overeducated and Underpaid” This is the core demographic identified by Trader Joe’s founder, Joe Coulombe. This segment is made up of college-educated consumers who value quality and sophistication but are highly budget-conscious. They are often adventurous in their food and drink choices but prefer to avoid the high markups of prestige brands.
• College Students and Budget Drinkers: The wine is a staple for college students on a budget or anyone else who wants an accessible alcoholic beverage on a “shoestring budget”.
• Party Hosts and Bulk Buyers: The wine is highly popular with consumers buying in bulk for social gatherings, and it is often the "house wine" for parties where hosts want to be generous without overspending. 
• Entry-Level Wine Consumers: The brand has been credited with expanding the wine market by attracting people who would not typically buy wine at a $10 price point or higher. It serves as a low-risk "entry point" that introduces new consumers to wine, many of whom eventually move on to premium brands.
• Retirees: Who have historically been one of Trader Joe's most important customer segments. The retailer intentionally targets areas near retirement complexes and medical centers to attract these customers. 
• The “Anti-Snob” Segment: There is a significant audience that buys Charles Shaw as a form of “blue-collar pride,” and these consumers enjoy the idea of cheating the California cartel of high-priced Napa Valley wines. 
• Urban and Suburban "Yuppies:” Early in the brand's history, the wine was specifically marketed as something that yuppies would feel comfortable drinking. By packaging the wine in a "real" bottle with a traditional-looking label and a natural cork, the brand provided a more acceptable experience for professional consumers than a box of wine, despite being priced similarly to bulk options.

So, maybe you are one of those folks, and maybe you are not, but either way, we’re drinking this wine today and letting you know if we would ever bother buying it.

Before we get to the tasting, I also want to spend a little time talking about some of the controversies surrounding the brand because, well, it’s sort of fun to gossip, amiright?!?

The brand was founded in 1974 by Charles F. Shaw who was a Stanford MBA and investment banker who aimed to produce French-style Beaujolais in Napa Valley. The original wines were critically acclaimed and even served at the White House. However, the winery collapsed due to agricultural setbacks, such as a root louse infestation, a supplier error that tainted 1,400 barrels, and a costly divorce. In 1995, Fred Franzia who owned the of the Bronco Wine Company purchased the bankrupt name and trademark.

Fred Franzia is an interesting guy. He was actually the nephew of Ernest Gallo, yes, that Gallo who started Gallo wines. His great-grandfather also started Franzia Brothers Winery. Yes, that Franzia that sells boxed wine today. He was known to be reclusive, and despite making a lot of money, he is said to have worked 100 hours a week, operated the business out of a small, single-wide trailer furnished with plastic folding tables, and was known to be very frugal in his life and in his business so he could actually make profit from selling wine that cost $2. Or at least used to be sold for $2. We bought our wine for $3.99 so I guess we should call it Four Buck Chuck.

However, he also had a reputation for some questionable business practices. In 1993, Fred and his company were indicted for federal conspiracy to defraud. The company misrepresented cheaper grapes as premium Zinfandel and Cabernet Sauvignon by sprinkling prized Zinfandel leaves over the loads, a practice Franzia called “blessing the loads.” He pleaded guilty, paid a $500,000 fine, and was forced to step down as president for five years.

He also spent years fighting California’s premium winemakers over his use of the word "Napa" on labels for wines actually made from cheaper Central Valley grapes. He unsuccessfully sued the state to protect a legal loophole, eventually losing a battle that went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court.

But wait, there’s more.

The extreme low price of Charles Shaw has led to persistent criticism regarding labor and industrial shortcuts. In 2008, a scandal erupted when Maria Isabel Vasquez Jimenez, a pregnant 17-year-old undocumented worker, died of heat exhaustion while working for a Bronco labor contractor. This highlighted the possibility of many more labor violations when farming grapes at such a low cost.

Critics and sommeliers point out that to maintain low prices, Bronco uses mechanical harvesters that violently shake everything off the vines, including insects, birds, and twigs, referred to in the industry as MOG or “material other than grapes.” Also, to mimic the taste of premium wine, they often use oak chips to make it taste like the wine has been in barrels, and may include grape concentrate, sugar, and acidification to mask the low quality of the bulk grapes used. So, there’s that.

Evidently, the real Charles Shaw has expressed some real bitterness over the brand's legacy as well as the legacy of his name and reputation. He has never seen a nickel from the billions of bottles sold under his name, which is kind of sad. And he has characterized the transformation of his name into a bargain brand as embarrassing and demeaning, and has said that the cheap wine was not what he started out to do.

And, Bronco Wine was in the news recently for laying off 220 workers and closing production facilities.

So,I’ll just say this which I have said before, but somebody pays a price when things are really cheap, and you don’t get really cheap things without there being some consequences. I am not saying that only expensive things are better, because there’s plenty of things to complain about with bigger brands, etc. but when Trader Joe’s or WalMart or some big retailer sells you things that seem to be a great bargain, there is someone out there who is paying the price, and it is likely someone who makes a low wage in the first place.

So, I will get off my soapbox now.

I think it’s time to learn a little more about the specific wines we are drinking today. Whaddya say?


Charles Shaw Two Buck Chuck Wines We Chose for This Episode 22:40

As usual, the wines we have chosen for this episode are under $25, and they should be relatively easy to find because I bought them both at Trader Joe’s - which by now should be a surprise to no one. If you do not have a Trader Joe’s nearby, or, if you are like New York City and you have a Trader Joe’s but it doesn’t sell wine, and that is a hint later for our wine in the news segment, then we will let you know if we think you should bother trying to find these wines. I will also say that there are several flavors of Charles Shaw wine that we are not reviewing today, but we may be able to tell something about them from the experience of these.

Now, there is just not a ton we are going to be able to tell you about these wines because they don’t talk a lot about the production process. Which is also not so awesome and something I really don’t like. 

The first wine we are going to drink is the 2023 Charles Shaw Chardonnay. I can tell you that they say the wine is from California and that it is 12.5% alcohol. Information I could find online say that the likely source their grapes from California’s San Joaquin Valley, that they use mechanical harvesters to save on labor costs, and, as mentioned earlier, the harvesters knock the shit out of the vines and collect everything - not just grapes but MOG, more than grapes.

The Chardonnay is treated with oak chips, they do not use malolactic fermentation which is often used in Chardonnay to tamp down acidity, they bottle the wine at a rate of 250 bottles per minute. Yes, I said minute. They use lightweight glass, not for environmental reasons but because it is cheaper, and they use composite corks which are the cheapest form of natural cork, made from pressed cork particles with a thin veneer of real cork at the top. 

But I could not really find out much else, so let’s move on to the 2023 Charles Shaw Cabernet Sauvignon. Everything about the way this wine is made is about the same as the Chardonnay, but because US labeling laws allow a wine to be called a specific varietal if it contains 75% of that grape, which is really low if you ask me, this wine is likely a blend of Cabernet Sauvignon and other less expensive grapes. But, because there is no tech sheet, we don’t know. 

Now, on the Charles Shaw website, they do not offer a ton of information about their wine, but they do have a whole section on Sustainability which I thought was really interesting. Here is what they say:

• The vineyards use sustainable farming practices, like using cover crops to add nutrients and erosion control. They say they compost the vineyards, use biodiverse insect control solutions to protect trees and that helps the birds that naturally reduce rodents through hunting. They also use water management which they say reduces their water usage by up to 25%
• They also talk about how their logistics systems for transporting wine helps reduce their carbon footprint, and they use renewable resources whenever possible.
• They also say they use lightweight, recyclable packaging, and that they are True Zero Waste certified, meaning they divert 90% or more of their solid waste away from landfills - mostly by focusing on recycling. 

So, that’s at least something. 

But, I think that is enough information - let’s get to drinking! We’ll take a quick break and be right back. And, if you have these wines or similar wines, drink along with us to get some participation points, which you can trade-in for free stickers. You just need to send me an email with your mailing address, and I will get those “I drink with The Wine Pair Podcast” stickers over to you!

LINKS TO SOURCES FOR THESE SPECIFIC WINES

• https://www.traderjoes.com/home/products/pdp/052437?utm_source=mpn

2023 Charles Shaw Chardonnay, 2023 Charles Shaw Cabernet Sauvignon Wine Tasting, Pairing, and Review 27:44

Wine: Charles Shaw Chardonnay
Region: California
Year: 2023
Price: $3.99
Retailer: Trader Joe’s
Alcohol: 12.5%
Grapes: Chardonnay
Professional Rating: Vivino 3.1

What we tasted and smelled in this Charles Shaw Chardonnay: 

• Color: Light yellow
• On the nose: Butter, vanilla, peach, nectarine, spiced or baked pineapple, pineapple upside cake, caramel,  citrus, green apple
• In the mouth: Simple, juicy, easy to drink, a little thin, creamy, viscous, a great party wine, apple, vanilla, pineapple, citrus, a bottled fruit juice, not a buttery Chardonnay, more like an unoaked Chardonnay, quenching

Food to pair with this Charles Shaw Chardonnay: outdoor barbecue, grilled shrimp, cheese plate, potato chips, finger foods, fish and chips, chips and guac
 
As a reminder on our rating scale, we rate on a scale of 1-10, with no half points, where 7 and above means that we would buy it, and 4 and below means that we are likely to pour it down the sink, and a 5 or 6 means we are likely to drink it and finish it, but we are probably not going to buy it. 

Charles Shaw Chardonnay Wine Rating: 

• Joe: 5/10
• Carmela: 6/10

Wine: Charles Shaw Cabernet Sauvignon
Region: California
Year: 2023
Price: $3.99
Retailer: Trader Joe’s
Alcohol: 12.5%
Grapes: Cabernet Sauvignon (?)
Professional Rating: Vivino 3.1

What we tasted and smelled in this Charles Shaw Cabernet Sauvignon: 

• Color: Light red, looks almost like a Pinot, burgundy red with orange on the edges, looks thin 
• On the nose: Smoky, medicinal, cherry cough drop, currant, raisin, spicy, smoked cayenne, cough medicine, not much fruit
• In the mouth: Thin, medicinal, tastes watered down, not a lot of body, not offensive, but not much going on, butterscotch on the aftertaste, not a great aftertaste

Food to pair with this Charles Shaw Cabernet Sauvignon: Pizza, grilled cheese sandwich, cheap movie and popcorn
 

Charles Shaw Cabernet Sauvignon Wine Rating: 

• Joe: 4/10
• Carmela: 5/10

Which one of these are you finishing tonight?

• Carmela: Charles Shaw Chardonnay
• Joe: Charles Shaw Chardonnay

The Test: Did we nail the taste profiles expected from California Chardonnay and Cabernet Sauvignon?  41:00

• General 
  • California Chardonnay: Warmer regions (like Napa Valley) full-bodied, buttery, baked apple, pineapple, and vanilla. Cooler coastal areas (like the Sonoma Coast) crisp, bright citrus, green apple, and minerality
  • California Cabernet Sauvignon: Fruit-forward, full-bodied, ripe flavors of black cherry, blackcurrant, and blackberry, vanilla, oak, and baking spice. Firm tannins, medium approachable
• Charles Shaw Chardonnay
  • Winery: boasts a light straw color and aromas of apple and pear commingling with warm vanilla. Creamy on the palate and possessing a soft, lingering finish
  • Sporked: Do you want oak? I said, do you want OAK! This Trader Joe’s Chardonnay will body slam you with oak, brother. Luckily, there’s some acidity to balance out that vanilla-tinged woodsy flavor. But mostly, you’re licking a barrel.
• Charles Shaw Cabernet Sauvignon
  • Winery: A deep, ruby-colored wine with aromatics of blackberry and vanilla

What is the verdict on Charles Shaw Two Buck Chuck Wines? 42:44
No problem with people buying it. Not offensive. A standard wine for new wine drinkers or somebody who wants a low-cost bottle of wine. You can do way worse. The Chardonnay in particular was a pleasant surprise


And now it is time to head over to our news desk so that we can cover our wine in the news this week segment, and this week, the news is not super recent, but it totally fits the theme of the episode.

Wine in the news this week: Trader Joe's suing NYC wine shop for using 'Joe,' encroaching on its brand  43:38

• https://gothamist.com/news/trader-joes-suing-nyc-wine-shop-for-using-joe-encroaching-on-its-brand
• https://evgrieve.com/2025/02/a-taste-of-change-for-joes-wine-co.html 

This week our wine in the news comes to us from Catalina Gonella writing for Gothamist. And the article is called  "Trader Joe's suing NYC wine shop for using 'Joe,' encroaching on its brand."

Here’s is the scoop: a wine shop opened in New York City, called itself Joe's Wine Co., decorated in a way that looked suspiciously like a Trader Joe's, and then agreed to stop, and then immediately did not stop.
Now let me back up, because there are some details here that are too good to skip.

For fifteen years, Trader Joe's operated a dedicated wine shop near Union Square in Manhattan. Then in 2022, the store abruptly closed. The closure happened right as the workers  there were trying to unionize. Make of that what you will.

So the neighborhood had a Trader Joe's grocery store on 14th Street, but no dedicated wine shop anymore. And into that gap, in the summer of 2024, a new shop opened just a few blocks away. And it called itself Joe's Wine Co.

Now, you might think, Joe is a pretty common name. I mean it’s my name. And Joe's Pizza is literally right next door to this same block, and Trader Joe's has never once sued Joe's Pizza.

But Joe's Wine Co. went a bit too far, because they also put up a red circular logo, wood paneling, and advertised “one hundred wines under twelve dollars.”

Trader Joe's crew members started receiving inquiries from confused customers who thought Joe's Wine Co. was part of Trader Joe's. So Trader Joe's reached out and tried to negotiate a settlement. And Joe's Wine Co. agreed. For a while. They took down the red banner and the circular logo. But by mid-November 2024 they put it all back up again, and so Trader Joe’s sued

Joe’s Wine Co said that Joseph is a family name, going back hundreds of years, and they said the store, "celebrates a family heritage of winemaking that dates back to 12th-century Spain."

On January 28th, 2025, a federal judge granted a permanent injunction against Joe's Wine Co. The court ruled that Trader Joe's trademarks had been infringed, and so Joe's Wine Co. had to rebrand. They painted over the "Joe's" on the storefront, ripped out the wood panelind, and reopened under the new name of Taste Wine co. which, it turns out, was the exact name of another wine shop that was opened before in the city. So, these are not the most original people.

Carmela, I have to ask. If someone powerful came along and told you that you had to change your name, or Babycakes, that it was too similar to a famous brand, what would you do?


Listener Shoutouts 47:06
We have some fun listener shoutouts for this week, and we so appreciate when you reach out to use and tell us what you think, or what you are drinking, and so here are some shoutouts:

• Sunita who left us a voice message via our website on her feelings about Meiomi wine and how she felt frustrated that we were so dismissive of it. It is a good reminder on a few things. First, we do recognize that we sometimes yuck someone else’s yum, and so we need to be thoughtful about that. Second, we always try to say this - our taste is our taste, and we don’t expect you to agree with us. What we hope is that you can use us as a reference point because you either agree or disagree with us. If you have similar tastes to us, then you will probably like wines we like. If you have a different taste preference than us, you know that wines we don’t like you might like. So, we really appreciate the feedback and it is a good reminder.
• Adam - drank along with us on the Frappato episode, and he had an unfiltered Frappato that was a little funky but “interesting,” and said that we should absolutely go to Slovenia, said he and his wife went and had a great time and really liked their food and wine culture
• Leni on Instagram who sent us a really sweet note that she was happy she found our podcast, and we are so glad you found us Leni
• Ryan rjfergycooks who thought I was breathless not trying to be quiet in my ig video
• Denise who said our podcast helped her with a wine puzzle of Italy she was doing and we want to see the puzzle when it’s done!!!

Wines coming up in future episodes in case you want to drink along with us 49:35

• Italian Sangiovese, but not Chianti
  • 2022 Cantina Roccafiore Melograno
  • 2021 Di Majo Norante Sangiovese
• Alsace Pinot Gris
  • 2020 Pierre Sparr Pinot Gris
  • 2020 Frey-Sohler Vielles Vignes Pinot Gris
• Lebanese wines
  • Chateau Musar Lebanon Jeune Red 2022
  • Massaya Le Colombier Rouge 2021
• Kirkland Bordeaux
  • 2023 Pauillac
  • 2023 Saint-Julien
• Kirkland Châteauneuf-du-Pape 
  • 2024 Châteauneuf-du-Pape 
• Kirkland Moscato d’Asti
  • 2025 Moscato d’Asti

Outro and how to find The Wine Pair Podcast 49:56

Thank you for listening to us and for supporting our show, and remember, we buy all of our own wine and we do all of the writing and recording and editing to bring you a show every week because we absolutely love doing it, and our small little ask for you is that you please follow or subscribe to our podcast and also please leave us a nice rating and review  to help us grow our listeners - and a huge thank you to all of you who have done so already! 

You can also follow us on Instagram and Bluesky at thewinepairpodcast. You can contact us on our website thewinepairpodcast.com, and you can sign up for our email newsletter there and you can also visit our “Shop Wine” section where you can find links to buy the wines that we rate as buys in each episode.  I will also note that on our website, if you are curious about a wine we have covered in the past, we do have a pretty good search functionality, so you can use that find wines you want to know more about. 

And we want to make content you care about and you like, so send us a note or DM us and give us some feedback or let us know if there are wines you want us to try or wine making areas of the world you are curious about - and we’ll take care of it! joe@thewinepairpodcast.com 

Alright, with that, we are going to sign off, so thanks again, and we will see you next time. And, as we say, life is short, so stop drinking shitty wine.

________________________

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Q. Is Two Buck Chuck actually worth buying?
A. Depends on the bottle. We gave the Chardonnay a 5 and 6 out of 10, which puts it in "would drink but not buy" territory. The Cab scored a 4 and 5, and that's closer to a debate on whether we would drink or not for us. At $3.99, the Chardonnay is the one we'd reach for again.

Q. What does Charles Shaw Chardonnay taste like?
A. It's simple and juicy, with butter, vanilla, peach, and a pineapple upside-down cake thing on the nose. On the palate it's a bit thin but creamy and easy to drink. More unoaked than oaked, with apple, citrus, and vanilla coming through.

Q. What does Charles Shaw Cabernet Sauvignon taste like?
A. Not great, honestly. The nose is smoky and medicinal, like a cherry cough drop with some currant and raisin. On the palate it's thin and watered down, with a butterscotch aftertaste that doesn't do it any favors. Joe rated it a 4 out of 10.

Q. How does Two Buck Chuck compare to more expensive wines?
A. The Chardonnay punches above its weight for a $3.99 bottle. The Cab doesn't. The Chardonnay surprised us enough that Carmela gave it a 6, but the Cab looks and tastes thin across the board. The price is remarkable either way.

Q. What food pairs well with Charles Shaw wine?
A. The Chardonnay is a solid outdoor cookout or picnic or party wine. Grilled shrimp, a cheese plate, fish and chips, chips and guac, finger foods. The Cab is best with low-stakes comfort food: pizza, a grilled cheese sandwich, or a cheap movie & popcorn date night.

Q. Why is Two Buck Chuck so cheap?
A. Charles Shaw wine is made by Bronco Wine Company, one of the largest wine producers in the US. They own vineyards, production facilities, and distribution, which lets them cut costs that other producers can't. Volume, cutting corners on production, and vertical integration are how you get wine to $3.99.

Q. Is Charles Shaw wine good quality?
A. The Chardonnay cleared a low bar and then some. Vivino rates both wines at 3.1, and we landed roughly there ourselves. It's not quality in the "cellar this" sense, but the Chardonnay is genuinely drinkable and brings no shame to a backyard barbecue.

________________________
RESEARCH ARTICLES AND LINKS FOR THIS EPISODE

• https://www.thepennyhoarder.com/save-money/trader-joes-wine-review/ 
• https://www.tastingtable.com/1897398/charles-shaw-wines-ranked/
• https://www.winebusiness.com/news/article/315084
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronco_Wine_Company
• https://www.wine-searcher.com/merchant/23897-bronco-wine-company
• winebusiness.com/news/link/301409
• https://www.sfgate.com/wine/article/bronco-loses-a-round-so-consumers-win-napa-2666093.php
• https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/california-bronco-wine-company-second-layoffs-of-2025/
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Shaw_wine
• https://thebradentontimes.com/stories/food-and-dining-three-buck-chuck-vs-winking-owl,13351
• https://www.wineenthusiast.com/culture/industry-news/the-complicated-legacy-of-fred-franzia/
• https://www.mashed.com/1027059/the-contentious-history-behind-fred-franzia-and-the-franzia-wine-company/
• https://worldlypartners.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/Trader-Joes.pdf
• https://dhowell.com/blog/charles-shaw-two-buck-chuck-franzia/
• https://econ.sites.northeastern.edu/wiki/microeconomics/supply-and-demand/two-buck-chuck-a-revolution-in-the-wine-industry/
• https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/wine-trader-joes-two-buck-chuck-lay-offs-b2697806.html
• https://clubtraderjoes.substack.com/p/the-two-buck-chuck-roundup-a-former
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lup8eUro_AQ
• https://arrowheadwine.blogspot.com/2013/01/two-buck-chuck.html
• https://www.tannicpanic.wine/p/tannic-panic-issue-9-two-buck-chuck
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmzmLuiL3H0
• https://thehustle.co/how-two-buck-chuck-changed-the-wine-industry
• https://www.kalw.org/show/crosscurrents/2020-01-30/evaluating-the-taste-and-cost-of-two-buck-chuck
• https://qz.com/fred-franzia-two-buck-chuck-tricks-1849535917
• https://www.marketplace.org/story/2017/04/18/how-charles-shaw-wine-became-two-buck-chuck
• https://wineeconomist.com/2024/10/29/value-model/
• https://www.pressdemocrat.com/2025/02/21/wine-business-challenges-behind-two-buck-chuck-owners-recent-moves-2/
• https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/experience/news-history/charles-shaw-mba-71-risk-rigidity
• https://blog.wblakegray.com/2014/08/the-romantic-mystery-of-charles-shaw.html
• https://outerspace.wine/charles-shaw-reviews/

________________________

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Joe: 00:00
Carmilla, TubuckCuck has a reputation. Depending on who you are, that reputation may be it's a screaming deal, and that reputation may also be it's not a good wine.

Speaker: 00:11
Right.

Joe: 00:12
But I'll tell you what, we tried two different Tubuck Chuck wines today, and one of them actually really surprised us. We'll let you know if it's a good surprise or a bad surprise or a spoiler, but it was not really a good surprise.

Speaker: 00:25
Yeah, I mean it's kind of an interesting surprise. Yeah. It's kind of like take you by surprise.

Joe: 00:29
Yeah, exactly. So listen in and we'll tell you more. 

Joe: 00:38
Hello, fellow Cabernet Sayers, and welcome to the Wine Pair Podcast. I'm Joe, your Samolier of Reason Ever They Parast Wine, and this is my wife and my wine pairing partner in Prime, Carmela.

Speaker: 00:50
Hi there.

Joe: 00:50
And we are the Wine Pair.

Speaker: 00:52
Woo!

Joe: 00:52
If you're new to our podcast, here's what we do. Every week we buy wines under $25 with our own money. We taste them and we give you our brutally honest opinion on whether they're worth buying or not. Nobody pays us to review specific wines. We don't accept free bottles from wineries, and we're not afraid to call out a bad wine when we taste one. And Decanter magazine calls us fun, irreverent, chatty, and entertaining. So if that sounds like your vibe, welcome to our tribe of wine lovers. Woo! And yes, once again, Carmela, the name for the tribe this week came from Timmy. He gave us a whole bunch.

Carmela: 01:24
Goodness, Timmy. You're keeping us in business.

Joe: 01:26
Yeah, Cabernet Sayers. And he also had Chardonnay sayers, but you know, you can I can only use one.

Carmela: 01:31
It's good for this episode, it is.

Joe: 01:33
But if you have a tribe name that you would like to share with us, please let us know, and we will ask you if you want to be on the pond with us.

Carmela: 01:42
Because we're stumped. I mean, at this point, we've pretty much worn it out.

Joe: 01:46
So I have no ideas. I'm out fresh out.

Carmela: 01:49
Yeah. Which is a weird thing to say. Thank goodness for Timmy.

Joe: 01:52
Thank God for Timmy. I say that almost every day. Yeah. Carmilla, you know what we're gonna do today?

Carmela: 01:57
What?

Joe: 01:58
We're gonna answer a question that many people want to know. And what many people already have a strong opinion on, which is why it's so fun, and that is is Tubuck Chuck, aka Charles Shaw wine found at Trader Joe's any good or not?

Carmela: 02:12
I was just at Trader Joe's today.

Joe: 02:14
And did what did you were you did?

Carmela: 02:17
Did you go to the wine sh area? I didn't have you with me.

Joe: 02:20
So you didn't it didn't even cross your mind that maybe you should pick some up.

Carmela: 02:24
No, not really. I figured that you had plenty on the way.

Joe: 02:28
Okay, all right. Carmela, to be honest, this is a wine that is a bit of a departure for our podcast. I mean, it is true that we focus on wines that are under $25 and relatively easy to find, but we are more than that, Carmela. We are more than that. We try to focus on wines that are also good, that are under the radar, and often come from places and grapes you've never heard of, so we can expand your wine horizons.

Carmela: 02:49
Right. That's what we want to do. So, what's wrong with this then?

Joe: 02:52
Yeah, it's a great question. Because when we look at the interwebs and the Google machine, what I can tell you unequivocally is that far more people search for and come to our website and podcasts to learn about the big brands that we generally don't cover, like Mayomi and Josh and Charles Shaw and Layer Cake, then come to find out about White Rioja or Xenomavro or Valpoli Cella through through the search engine machines. Got it. And we think those wines are important to know about and learn and taste, and maybe more important than two buck chuck because they're often less marketed or exposed to the average consumer, but we also feel it is valuable for us to help steer you in the right direction about wines that you may run into or that your family and friends drink so that you can see what we think and then Carmela, make up your own mind.

Carmela: 03:41
Right.

Joe: 03:41
You don't have to go along with what we say. No, and we will try to be as honest and truthful as as we can. We try not to pre-bias our tasting. In other words, we're gonna try as hard as we can to give you a review of the wines today based on their taste and their merits rather than on the opinion of wine snobs or the general public. Okay. We're not doing this as a joke. It's not a joke. I don't think it's funny, even though I giggled a little bit. A little bit. It's kind of one of those. It's like I'm not actually laughing, but now that I'm nervous about it, I'm laughing.

Carmela: 04:15
It's like when somebody gets hurt or you just kind of giggle. It's it's I don't know why. Somebody else is embarrassed and then you laugh. Somebody gets smacked. I I laugh. I know, it's really unusual. Funny.

Joe: 04:24
Okay. It's I mean, funny in a strange way.

Carmela: 04:28
When I would fall and hurt myself as a kid, she'd laugh at me.

Joe: 04:31
Well, maybe scarce.

Carmela: 04:32
I'm your cousin.

Joe: 04:32
Oh, that's weird. Okay, Carmela, what this is about today is about our taste and our opinion. And we always promise to be honest and sincere when we taste and review wine so that you can rely on us. And we just got some great feedback from a listener, which we'll talk about more later. But our goal is not to yuck your yum. No, or make you feel bad for liking a wine that we may not like.

Carmela: 04:53
Never.

Joe: 04:54
Our goal is just to be honest with you and then let you make up your own mind.

Carmela: 04:58
Right. Don't take it personally. Nobody, please.

Joe: 05:00
You're in choice here. You're always in choice on this podcast. Right.

Carmela: 05:03
And then there's this thing called let them. Right, right.

Joe: 05:06
Mel Robbins.

Carmela: 05:07
Do you know the let them theory?

Joe: 05:09
I do. I hope the people at home do. And if you do.

Carmela: 05:12
That was just a plug for Mel.

Joe: 05:14
If you if you ever, which I call Carmella Mel very often, but if you I never do it on a podcast.

Carmela: 05:19
Because of Mel Robbins.

Joe: 05:20
No, because your name is Carmela. Anyway, but if if you want to chat with Carmela sometime, just bring up Mel Robbins. I'm a fan.

Speaker: 05:27
I'm a fan.

Joe: 05:27
Now we're gonna try and spend some time talking about Charles Shaw wines, why they're popular, how they're made, and why they became a rage before we get to our tasting section. But I think we should start off with one thing you may be curious about, and that is why is Two Buck Chuck such a sensation? Because people are certainly buying it, Carmela, and many of those people do like it, and it's been around for a long time. Charles Shaw wines have been um made since 1979, but they debuted at Trader Joe's in 2002, so almost 25 years ago, and they're still going strong. So there's something to it. And on a note, a little fact that you can put in your brain box, Tub Chuck was an instant success at Trader Joe's, and just one year after they had started selling it, they had already sold 60 million bottles.

Carmela: 06:14
But do we think it's really the price point? Like people just cannot get over like that is such a good deal.

Joe: 06:21
I'm telling you, the check is in the mail because that's the perfect segue. There are some reasons why two buck chuck became and has stayed popular, Carmela, and I'm gonna go through them. But the first one is extreme affordability. The brand's defining feature was its $1.99 price point when it came out, which is why it's called Yeah, Two Buck Chuck. Now, usually wine is viewed as a luxury item, and Charles Shaw was sold for less than most bottled waters, right?

Speaker: 06:48
I mean, two may drink wine.

Joe: 06:50
Exactly. And so it created a lower barrier to entry for casual consumers and college students, and so people could buy it, right? Like you didn't have to worry about it being a luxury, you could just buy some wine. So that's one. Another one is high quality to price ratio, which we talk about, high QPR. We usually talk about it with wines that are a little bit more expensive, but while critics often debate its true quality, many consumers and professionals find Charles Shaw wine Chewbacchuck to be surprisingly drinkable for the price.

Carmela: 07:18
Well, and I think some people are just Trader Joe fans. Well, it's like It's like I have the script. I don't, you guys. I'm gonna do the script.

Joe: 07:26
I'm gonna skip down to that bullet point because that's called the Trader Joe's effect. The wine is sold exclusively at Trader Joe's, which has a cult-like following that often feels like a treasure hunt, and many people just swear by products that Trader Joe sells. They go and stand by a product and they go following the biggest thing. Others is other reasons why. Awards early on, the wine won prizes in wine competitions. The 2002 Shiraz won a double gold medal at the 28th Annual International Eastern Wine Competition.

Carmela: 07:57
They got a medal.

Joe: 07:58
Yeah, it but it beat out 2,300 other wines. Wow. And the 2000 2005 Chardonnay was named Best Chardonnay from California at the 2007 California State Fair.

Carmela: 08:09
Well, and it's also a one-stop shop, right? If you're gonna get your groceries, I'm just thinking about all the practicality around here. It's Friday night. You go to Trader Joe's, pick up that, you know, what is it, those like gnocchi, frozen gnocchi packets, pretty good for like a frozen dish. And you just want to get a loaf of bread and a bottle of two buck check. Yeah. You walk out, $12 pour.

Joe: 08:31
You got dinner, wine, everything you want. Yeah. Right. I don't have that on my list, but I like that one. Convenience.

Carmela: 08:38
My wheels are just turning. You are I like it. And the weird thing is that I was at Trader Joe's today.

Joe: 08:43
That's crazy talk. Okay. The another reason why good marketing, the nickname Two Buck Chuck, has become a cultural icon that pretty much everybody knows. If you say two buck chuck, people know what you're talking about. Nobody's confused about what that is. True. And I guess the name was reportedly coined by a Trader Joe's employee in an internet chat room and then it blew up.

Carmela: 09:04
But don't you think there's like time and a place for a two buck check? Like if you brought if you were cooking wine for like a new significant other, would that be a great thing to say? And I and just pull out like, hey, and now I got a two buck check for us to I don't know.

Joe: 09:18
I don't know. I it would depend on who this person is and how well you knew them, because somebody might be turned on by that. Somebody might be turned off.

Carmela: 09:25
That's what I mean.

Joe: 09:26
Well, it's not also not on my list. Can I get back to my list? Okay. Another one is just anti-snob appeal because Fred Francia, who we'll talk about later, who is the wine's creator, he intentionally marketed the brand as a rejection of the pretentiousness and high markups associated with Napa Valley. He famously argued, Carmilla, that no one should pay more than $10 for a bottle of wine.

Carmela: 09:52
Okay.

Joe: 09:53
So it's kind of a way to it's kind of a way to stick it to the snobs.

Carmela: 09:57
I like that.

Joe: 09:58
And then there's just mythology and urban myths. It has its own urban myths. Like there are some that say that Charles Shaw was selling the wine for $2 out of spite following a bitter divorce. That's not true. But there's also one that Bronco Wine Company, which owns the brand, bought a bankrupt prestige label for only $27,000 and turned it into a billion bottle success story. And that story is true.

Carmela: 10:21
Oh, is that Wine in the News?

Joe: 10:23
It's well, actually, Wine in the News will cover Charles Shaw as well. But we're gonna get to a little bit more of that in a minute, too. This this whole thing, how did it come to be? So while Carmela, it can be easy to sort of smugly shrug off the wine, it is undoubtedly still popular, has introduced a lot of people to wine, and is a wine that many people do like. And so we're not, again, we're not here to yuck anybody's yum, and we'll try to be honest and real about how we feel about it. It's just how we feel. We're all about the feels. Feel the feels. And so today we're putting our taste buds to the test, and we're tasting and reviewing two 2023 Charles Shaw wines, one the Cabernet Sauvignon, and the other one the Chardonnay, to see if we think either or both of them are worth your hard-earned money. But first, okay, go ahead.

Carmela: 11:13
We are drinking.

Joe: 11:14
I like that you're into it, you're just into it today. Sometimes, ladies and gentlemen, she is not into it. I have to yell at her. Not to yawn into the microphone.

Carmela: 11:22
But this time, maybe we need to change the night of the week that we do this.

Joe: 11:27
I just want to hear what you were getting at.

Carmela: 11:28
No, I forgot. No, but you chose a cabinet shard.

Joe: 11:32
Yeah, so that's that's also tricky for us too. Right. We're putting it really to the test.

Carmela: 11:37
I mean, I guess so.

Joe: 11:38
We're not we're not messing around, Carmeleb, but first.

Carmela: 11:41
You've got to do our shame. Let's plug. What if I didn't say that? I don't know. I'm trying to get you back on track. I like when you go off track, but if I didn't say that, then we may never get to the next part because you're so like structured. You might be like, okay, and then you keep you keep prompting me. And I, if I don't say that, we can't move, guys.

Joe: 11:60
Trying to pull her back. Trying to pull her back. It's fine though. People like it. People enjoy it.

Speaker: 12:04
Oh man.

Joe: 12:05
Okay. Well, thank you for listening to us and for supporting our show. And you know, we buy all the wine, we taste and review every week so that we can give you real and honest reviews. And so if you like what you're hearing, please subscribe to our podcast and please leave us a nice five-star rating and review so we can grow listeners. Thanks to everybody who's already done that. We love to hear from you. We always respond so you can follow us on Instagram and Blue Sky at the Wine Pair Podcast and maybe TikTok. You can contact us on our website, thewinepairpodcast.com. You can sign up for our email newsletter there, which is going to come out pretty soon. Always comes out the first day of the month. And so you can sign up for that. Send us a note at Joe at the WinePair Podcast.com, and just you know what? Reach out to us and let us know how you feel.

Carmela: 12:43
Reach out in touch. No, we don't.

Joe: 12:46
Okay. And as we do every week, we'll tell you someone we think you should recommend the Wine Pair Podcast to, because frankly, the best way for us to grow listeners is when you tell your family and friends about us. And this week we want you to recommend us to anyone who is a Trader Joe's fan, especially if they are a Trader Joe's super fan. Because they may be really interested in this episode. Well, I think if they carry their Trader Joe's bag with them everywhere, I think you know they're a super fan.

Carmela: 13:11
Okay.

Joe: 13:11
But they may be really interested in this episode, and so and there's a lot of people like that out there. A lot of fans.

Carmela: 13:17
True.

Joe: 13:17
Okay. Carmela, have you ever walked into a Trader Joe's like you did today, seen the big wall of Charles Shaw wine, and thought, why the f do so many people buy it? And should I just buy it because I'm here just because?

Carmela: 13:32
Well, not really. I'm usually looking at like the chips section and the gnocchi and the chocolate bars. Yes. Today I was looking at the chocolate bars for you.

Joe: 13:43
I always look at the wine.

Carmela: 13:44
Yeah. Okay. I know you do.

Joe: 13:45
Well, Carmella, you may not be the audience, but there are plenty of audiences out there that this wine caters to. They may have already been covered in some of the ones that you talked about. And probably because your mind is just going, you're going to come up with some other audiences. But here are some audiences that the wine appeals to.

Speaker: 14:01
Okay.

Joe: 14:01
The over-educated and underpaid. This is actually a core demographic that was identified by Trader Joe's founder, Joe, his name was Joe, Joe Colombe. And it's it's made up of like college educated consumers who value quality and sophistication, but are highly budget conscious. So that's one.

Carmela: 14:19
I can see that.

Joe: 14:20
Another one, we know well, college students and budget drinkers. So the wine is a staple for college students like our daughter was when she was on a budget, which was our budget, or anyone else who wants an accessible alcoholic beverage on a shoestring budget. Sometimes you just want a wine and you don't want to pay a lot. Right. And two bucks, or now it's four bucks, but still, you can't even get a candy bar.

Carmela: 14:41
Again, if the candy bars there were just as much as that today.

Joe: 14:45
Exactly. Here's another group that you kind of mentioned party hosts and bulk buyers. So it's really popular with consumers buying in bulk for social gatherings. They often use it as a house wine, and it allows them to be generous without overspending, right? Here's we've got tons of wine, take as much as you want, right? Wow, like a party favor. Uh kind of, except you can't maybe you shouldn't leave with it unless they offer it. I wouldn't just like put one in your back pocket. Right.

Carmela: 15:11
I mean, I'm sorry if it still has a cork.

Joe: 15:13
Yeah.

Carmela: 15:14
I don't know. I don't know either. Actually, it'd be a great party favor. Four bucks?

Joe: 15:18
Yeah, not bad.

Carmela: 15:19
The next party, we're just gonna buy a bunch of cases of those. Take it home. Yeah, I like giving I like a party favor.

Joe: 15:25
I like it too. Okay.

Carmela: 15:26
I like to give a party favor.

Joe: 15:28
I do too. I like it when you give me a party favor. That sounds dirty. Okay, here's another audience entry-level wine consumer. So the brand has been credited with expanding the wine market by attracting people who would not typically buy wine or just wouldn't want to pay more than like 10 bucks for a wine. So it's a low-risk entry point that introduces many people to wine. Another one, Carmela, is retirees. They've been historically one of Trader Joe's most important customer segments. And actually, the retailer intentionally targets areas near retirement complexes and medical centers to attract these cost customers.

Carmela: 16:02
I mean, is that really where Trader Joe's is making their money?

Joe: 16:05
Sure.

Carmela: 16:05
On the two-buck chuck.

Joe: 16:06
And your parents go there all the time.

Carmela: 16:08
Um, but they don't buy that one.

Joe: 16:10
No, but I'm just saying that's I'm just saying the audiences that would that would be interested in and go to Trader Joe's. Yes. Another one is the anti-snob segment. We kind of talked about this, but there's a significant audience that buys Charles Shaw as a form of blue-collar pride. It's like, I I like the idea that I can buy a wine for not very much money. Screw you, rich people. And then there's urban and suburban yuppies. So early in the brand's history, the wine was specifically marketed as something that yuppies would feel comfortable drinking. And so by packaging the wine in a real bottle with traditional-looking labels and natural cork, the brand provided a more acceptable experience for professional consumers than something like a box of wine. So you want something inexpensive but still looks like a nice bottle of wine. There you go.

Speaker: 16:56
Like it.

Joe: 16:57
So maybe you are one of those folks, you out there in listening land, and maybe you're not. But either way, we're drinking this wine today and we're letting you know if we would ever buy it. Okay. Now, before we get to the tasting, I also want to spend a little time talking about some of the controversies surrounding the brand, because that's kind of gossip is kind of like. You like a little drama, don't you? Yeah, a little gossipy gossip. Okay, first of all, the brand was founded in 1974 by Charles F. Shaw, who is a Stanford NBA and investment banker who aimed to produce French-style Beaujoulais in Napa Valley. And the original wines were critically acclaimed and even served at the White House.

Speaker: 17:36
Oh, wow.

Joe: 17:36
This is the original.

Speaker: 17:38
Okay.

Joe: 17:38
However, the winery collapsed due to agricultural setbacks like a root louse infestation. I don't even know what that looks like. Yeah, that sounds bad. And a supplier error that tainted 1,400 barrels and this costly divorce. So in 1995, Fred Francia, who owned the Bronco Wine Company. Well, we're gonna talk about that, purchased the bankrupt name and trademark. So he just bought the name. He didn't buy the wine, he bought the name. So remember that.

Carmela: 18:05
Okay.

Joe: 18:06
Now Fred Francia is an interesting guy. He was actually the nephew of Ernest Gallo. Yes, that Ernest Gallo who started Gallo wine. So that was his uncle. And his great-grandfather also started Francia Brother Winery. Yes, the Francia that sells the box wine today. Right. So he was in the biz kind of already. He was known to be reclusive, and despite making a lot of money, he is said to have worked 100-hour weeks, operated the business out of a small single-wide trailer furnished with plastic folding tables, and was known to be very frugal in his life and his business, so he could actually make a profit from selling wine that cost $2. Or at least, again, used to be $2. However, he also had a reputation for some questionable business practices. So in 1993, old Fred and his company were indicted for federal conspiracy to defraud. The company misrepresented cheaper grapes as premium Zinfandel and Cabernet Sauvignon by sprinkling prized Zinfandel and Cabernet Sauvignon leaves over the loads, a practice that Fred called blessing the loads. He pleaded guilty, paid a $500,000 fine, and was forced to step down as president for five years. He also spent years fighting California's premium winemakers over his use of the word Napa on labels. He wanted to say Napa, but the wines that he was making were actually made from cheaper grapes from the Central Valley. He sued unsuccessfully and he eventually lost that battle all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. But wait, there's more.

Speaker: 19:41
Oh boy.

Joe: 19:41
The extreme low price of Charles Shaw wine has led to persistent criticism regarding labor and industrial shortcuts. In 2008, a scandal erupted when Maria Isabel Vasquez Jimenez, a pregnant 17-year-old undocumented worker, died of heat exhaustion while working for a Bronco labor contracted. Contractor, sorry, Bronco labor contractor. And critics and smoliers point out that to maintain low prices, Bronco uses mechanical harvesters that violently shake everything off the vines, including insects, birds, twigs, whatever. And it's referred to in the industry as MOG or material other than grapes. And to mimic the taste of premium wine, they often use oak chips to make it taste like the wine has been in barrels. And they may include grape concentrate, sugar, and acidification to mask the lower quality of the grapes used. So there's that. Interesting. And then Charles Shaw himself, not Fred Francia, but the old Chuck Shaw, the real guy. He has expressed some real bitterness over the brand's legacy as well as the legacy of his name and reputation. He's never seen a nickel from the billions of bottles sold under his name, which is kind of sad. And he has characterized the transformation of his name into a bargain brand as embarrassing and demeaning. And he has said that the cheap wine was not what he started out to do. And then more recently, Bronco Wine was in the news for laying off 220 workers.

Carmela: 21:07
So wow.

Joe: 21:08
So this is, I'm just gonna get on a soapbox for a minute. Can I get into a soapbox for a minute?

Carmela: 21:12
Sure.

Joe: 21:13
Not everybody's gonna agree with this soapbox, but I'm getting on it, sister. Okay, here we go. I've said this before, but somebody pays a price when things are really cheap. You don't get really cheap things without there being some consequences for somebody. And I'm not saying that only expensive things are good or better, because there's plenty of things to complain about with bigger brands and expensive things. But when Trader Joe's or Walmart or some big retailer sells you things that seem to be a great bargain, there's someone out there who's paying the price, and it's likely someone who makes a low wage in the first place or has to compromise. So that's my soapbox. I'm just gonna say that. I've always been a little skip about Trader Joe's. I know people love it. And look, when our kids were in college and and fresh out of college, and they're still kind of fresh out, Trader Joe's is a great place to go. Quality. For a low price. I'm not saying feel bad for shopping there. I'm just saying like cheap isn't free. So somebody pays. That's all I'm gonna say. Okay. But you know what? That's enough of my soapbox. I'm sorry if I if I made you feel bad, if I bummed you out.

Carmela: 22:13
But that's me being real. No, I'm just me being real. I just I'm just trying to be real. Right, right. And you, yeah, you got a heart, right? You got a heart.

Joe: 22:20
I do. We all do. I I think you have a heart too.

Carmela: 22:23
Yeah, but I was shopping at Trader Joe's today.

Joe: 22:25
I shop at Trader Joe's too.

Carmela: 22:27
I'm uh, you know, I'm I was feeling like a little attacked. Yeah, you are.

Joe: 22:31
Um you know, I'm not trying to be a hypocrite either. It's just like sometimes it's good to be conscious. But you know what, Carmilla? Let's learn about the specific wines we're drinking today. What do you say? Let's get off the soapbox. Do it.

Joe: 22:40
 Okay. As usual, the wines we have chosen for this episode are under $25. And today they're way under $25. And you know what? They should be relatively easy to find because I bought them both at Trader Joe's. Now, if you don't have a Trader Joe's nearby, or if you're like New York City and you have Trader Joe's, but it doesn't sell wine, and that is a hint for our wine in the news segment, by the way, then we will let you know if we think you should bother trying to find these wines. I will also say that there are several flavors of Charles Shaw wine that we are not reviewing today. So we're not trying the whole gamut, we're just trying the two. And we may be able to tell something from these two, but they may not be representative. And you can let us know. If you're like, hey, I would not have tried those two, you should try this other flavor of Charles Shaw wine, then let us know, and maybe we'll do that in a future episode.

Speaker: 23:26
Okay.

Joe: 23:26
Now there's not a ton we're gonna be able to tell you about these wines because they don't talk a lot about the production process, which is not so awesome because I like to get the tech sheets, but I'll tell you what I think I could find out. The first wine we're gonna drink is the 2023 Charles Shaw Chardonnay, and I can tell you that they say the wine is from California and that it's 12.5% alcohol. Now, information I could find online say that the likely source of the grapes is from California's San Joaquin Valley. They use mechanical harvesters to save on labor costs, and as mentioned earlier, the harvesters kind of knock the shit out of the vines and collect everything, the MOG. The Chardonnay is treated with oak chips. They do not use malolactic fermentation, which is often used in Chardonnay to tamp down on acidity. They bottle the wine, I'm not kidding. They bottle the wine at a rate of 250 bottles per minute. Wow.

Carmela: 24:17
Per minute. Holy cow, they're churning out a lot of wine.

Joe: 24:21
They're churning them out. They use lightweight glass. I'm saying not necessarily for environmental reasons, but because it's cheaper. But there's a little thing I'm gonna get to in a minute that may counter that. They use composite corks, which are the cheapest form of natural cork made from pressed cork particles with a thin veneer of real cork at the top. But I couldn't find out much else, so let's move on to the 2023 Charles Shaw Cabernet Savignon. Everything about the way this wine is made is about the same as the way the Chardonnay is made. But here's an interesting thing. U.S., and this is I I can't say this for sure for this wine, but US labeling laws allow a wine to be called a specific varietal if it contains 75% of that grape. So they can call it a Cabernet Sauvignon, but it only has to be three-quarters of the grape, which to me feels pretty low. Like 25% of something is quite a bit. And so it could be 25% of any old grapes that they just want to throw in for flavor and and and because it's cheaper. So anyway, but because there's no tech sheet, I can't confirm that.

Carmela: 25:25
Do you think it's just expensive to put together tech sheets, or do you just think that they're hiding something?

Joe: 25:30
I think it's more like if they don't really want you to know what they're doing, they won't they won't have a tech sheet. Okay. Like a lot of big brands, they just don't have tech sheets because they don't they're so mechanical, they're so processed, they're so industrialized that giving a tech sheet would be very generic because a lot of times they're like taking grapes from a lot of places or they're using different techniques or they're highly manipulating the wine. So I think that's why there's very often I think tech sheets usually come from winemakers who are super careful and really want you to know everything about how the wine was made and where and all that kind of stuff.

Speaker: 26:01
Okay.

Joe: 26:02
Now, back to what I said, Charles Shaw on the website, they don't offer a ton of information about the wine, but they do have a whole section on sustainability, which I was frankly kind of surprised by. So here's what they say the vineyards use sustainable farming practices, they use cover crops to add nutrients and erosion control. They compost the vineyards, they use biodiverse insect control solutions, which means they basically have birds and they allow, you know, birds to fly around to control insects, but they're not using a they're trying to not use as many herbicide or um insecticides and those kinds of things. And they use water management, which they say reduces their water usage by up to 25%. Okay. So that's pretty good. They also talk about how their logistics systems for transporting the wine helps reduce their carbon footprint and they use renewable resources wherever possible. And they also say they use lightweight recyclable packaging, that they are a true zero-waste certified business, meaning they divert 90% or more of their solid waste away from landfills, mostly focusing on recycling. So for all the crap that I just gave them and Trader Joe's and all that, right?

Speaker: 27:08
They're doing some good things.

Joe: 27:09
They're doing they're trying to be sustainable. Right. So good for them on that. Right. So you can't blame them.

Carmela: 27:14
And that's sometimes hard work. Sometimes that cause I mean, that can make it so that you're working a little bit harder at things, and increase costs, and you know, there's a there is there's cost for that.

Joe: 27:24
So, you know, give them props for that. But Carmela, I think that's enough information. I think it's time to get drinking. Woo! So if you have a Charles Shaw wine, especially if you have one of these 2023 Chardonnays or Cabernet Sauvignon, then drink along with us and tell us about your tasting notes and if you agree with us, and we will be right back. 

Joe: 27:44
Okay, we're back and we're ready to try our first wine. This is the Charles Shaw Chardonnay. It's from California. It doesn't give anything more specific than that. 2023 vintage, $3.99 at Trading Channel.

Carmela: 27:56
Oh man, that's a selling point.

Joe: 27:58
Yeah, 12.5% alcohol, 100% Chardonnay, as far as we know. They don't say anything else. There's no professional rating. Vivino gave it a 3.1, which is not awesome. But again, we're not here to yuck your yum, but we are going to be very honest about how we feel about this wine, which may include some things that you don't want to hear, but or maybe not. Maybe not. We're gonna be open-minded. But let's talk about the color.

Carmela: 28:17
Well, it's a chardonnay. I just want to say it looks buttery.

Joe: 28:20
It looks buttery. It's a nice color.

Carmela: 28:22
Yeah, no, it's very nice, it's very pretty.

Joe: 28:24
If you looked at this, you'd be like, hey, it's a Chardonnay or maybe even a Sauvignon blanc. I mean, it just looks like a white wine.

Carmela: 28:30
Yeah, pretty.

Joe: 28:30
It's nice looking. Of course. Okay, let's smell it. Okay. I feel like I'm getting a little butter and vanilla, but also like peach or nectarine.

unknown: 28:39
Okay.

Joe: 28:40
You know what, El, I'm getting a little pineapple. I feel like I'm getting some pineapple, like spiced pineapple.

Carmela: 28:44
There is some tropical fruit, almost like a um baked pineapple, like a like a uh upside-down pineapple cake. Is that what they're called? Upside down pineapple cake?

Joe: 28:53
Pineapple upside down cake.

Carmela: 28:55
Okay.

Joe: 28:56
You just had the order wrong, but you had the idea right.

Carmela: 28:58
And I've made one.

Joe: 28:58
I just couldn't come up with the and I've eaten one that you've made.

Carmela: 29:02
Yeah, it does kind of have a even with that little bit of um caramelization on there, it's almost a bit caramely in the smell. It's a nice smelling wine.

Joe: 29:12
No, I agree. I don't think it smells bad. It's got a little, a little bit of citrus. I feel like a little citrus and a little green apple.

Carmela: 29:18
We're covering it all.

Joe: 29:19
I mean, it doesn't smell bad. I'm just being quite honest here.

Carmela: 29:22
Yeah, no.

Joe: 29:23
Okay, let's taste it. Now we're gonna get to the real deal. Okay. It's super cold. I'll say that. It's not bad.

Carmela: 29:32
It is not bad.

Joe: 29:33
I mean, it's not like super butter. I I don't like oaky chardonnays.

Carmela: 29:38
No, I know you don't.

Joe: 29:39
This doesn't taste terribly oaky.

Carmela: 29:41
I would say that it's not terribly complex. Like it almost is like juicy. Yeah, I mean you know, like it's not hard to drink. Sometimes the Chardonnays are just kind of a lot. This is almost a thin Chardonnay where you could just kind of get in trouble.

Joe: 29:57
I totally agree. Yeah, you know, it doesn't taste super oaky. It is it is easy to drink. Again, it's ice cold, like it just came out of the fridge, so that probably helps. Although, if it was super oaky, it would actually be not great if it's super cold.

Carmela: 30:13
Yeah. I mean, it's definitely got that Chardonnay, cream, buttery. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of um viscous. Is that what you say sometimes? A little bit. It's got a little bit of syrupy, yeah. But I wouldn't say there's anything too overpowering about it.

Joe: 30:29
Not at all. It's actually harmless. I mean, it's drinkable.

Carmela: 30:33
I think it would actually be a great wine for a party.

Joe: 30:36
I kind of agree with you.

Carmela: 30:38
Because if you're having a lot of people and you really don't want to spend a lot and you think people will be drinking, this would be a wine I think a lot of people would enjoy.

Joe: 30:46
Yeah, I'm kind of surprised that I'm not like on this wine.

Speaker: 30:50
I know I am too.

Joe: 30:51
I mean, I'm getting a little bit of apple, a little bit of vanilla, but not a lot, a little bit of pineapple, like a little tropical fruit, a little citrus.

Carmela: 31:01
It's like a fruit juice, though. It almost is like those bottles of apple juice.

Joe: 31:06
It is.

Carmela: 31:07
Um, you know, or the treetop. It's not, I mean, what's the alcohol in this?

Joe: 31:12
12 and a half.

Carmela: 31:12
Yeah, okay.

Joe: 31:13
I'll say it's much more acidic and citrusy than I thought it would be. And I like that. I like that in a wine. Right.

Carmela: 31:19
I'm in a Chardonnay, I like that. Like I would not expect it as much. I feel like a lot of times when we have a Chardonnay, it's just too much of a meal. It's too much. Yeah. This is feeling a little bit on the more like tamped down side.

Joe: 31:34
Totally. It's not a buttery Chardonnay. It's more of like an unoaked Chardonnay.

Carmela: 31:37
Yeah.

Joe: 31:38
It's not bad.

unknown: 31:39
No.

Joe: 31:39
Okay, what food might you pair with this Charles Shaw Chardonnay?

Carmela: 31:43
Um, I think you could do a lot. I feel like this would be fun for like an outdoor barbecue, you know, where you're doing like shrimp on the bobby and you're doing but appetizers, cheese, like you have a nice cheese played out. Absolutely. And you could also do this like with potato chips and like just really kind of like finger food type of things, you know. Um, something salty would be really nice. Yep, or fish and chips or something too.

Joe: 32:08
Chips and dip, chip and guac.

Carmela: 32:10
Wow.

Joe: 32:11
I think it's I mean, I I hate to say it, but I'm like kind of enjoying it. Like this is if somebody served me this, I would be totally fine. And if you if you did not tell me what it was, I would not guess it was Charles Shaw or Chardonnay.

Carmela: 32:25
I don't I don't think I would either. Yeah. I mean, I'm trying to think, I mean, I would not know it's a Charles Shaw, but the Chardonnay, I'm trying to decide if I would know.

Joe: 32:33
Yeah. Now it's again, I'm gonna say this for the third time. It's super cold, and I actually think that's helping because it's very quenching. Well, Carmela, I think we're gonna rate this wine as a reminder. On a rating scale, we rate on a scale of one to ten, we don't give half points. Seven and above means we would buy it. Four below means we'd pour it down the sink, and a five or a six means we're likely to drink it and finish it, but we're not gonna buy it. But we're okay if you served it. So, okay, Carmela, what are you going to rate this wine?

Carmela: 32:60
Okay, so what I will say is that I'm pleasantly surprised.

Joe: 33:02
I am too. I am actually shocked.

Carmela: 33:04
Yeah, I'm not, I mean, I thought I was gonna be a little bit freaked out because the Chardonnay idea and then this two buck chuck, but I think I'm gonna give it a six because, like, ultimately, I'm probably not going to buy it. I mean, not even for like, you know, a reason to buy bulk wine.

Joe: 33:21
Oh, we don't uh you don't think for a party?

Carmela: 33:23
Well, I'm not sure. Like, I guess I would let you make the choice, but um, but I'm not gonna buy it for like Chardonnay Pals.

Joe: 33:30
Yeah. Because it it doesn't really have the taste of a like a classic buttery if that's what you're if you have a friend who's really into Chardonnay, they may not go for this.

Carmela: 33:39
I don't know. I don't know.

Joe: 33:40
I'm with you. It's like pretty easy drinking. Yeah, I think it's a party wine. Yeah, I'm gonna give it a five. Okay. I would like almost be tempted for like it's not a four. It's a solid. I'm like shocked. I am too absolutely shocked.

Carmela: 33:54
I feel like when we start dipping down into the four, it's like it's offensive and you don't want to drink it. Like, I would drink this wine.

Joe: 34:01
I agree. And I think if you served it at a party, you'd be fine. I again, I think I would if I was doing a bull like a big party, I might buy this wine. Okay, just and just maybe hide the bottle or something, but but it's it's it's it's drinkable. It is for sure, very drinkable, and not like a typical Oaky Chardonnay for that from that.

Carmela: 34:22
Maybe for a non-chardonnay drinker, even.

Joe: 34:25
Yeah, you can do worse, you can do way worse. For sure. Like for twice or three times that amount of wine. We have had way worse wines.

Carmela: 34:33
We have to find out from the Chardonnay lovers out there.

Joe: 34:35
What they think. Yeah, yeah. Okay, well, let's take a break and try our next wine. 

Joe: 34:42
Okay, we're back, and we're ready to try the Charles Shaw Cabernet Sauvign from California. It doesn't give a specific region. Also a 2023 vintage, $3.99 at Trader Joe's, 12.5% alcohol. We think it's 100% Cabernet Sauvignon, but you never know. This one also didn't have professional ratings, but also had a 3.1 for Vivino. And I'll just say on the last one, I don't think a 3.1 Vivino score for the Chardonnay is fair. It's it's their tastes. No, you're right. Don't yuck somebody else's yum. Okay, Carmelo, let's talk about the color. You said this on the port. I thought it was a looks really light to me. It does look, it looks more like a Pinot to me. Yeah. Interesting. It's kind of got this like ruby burgundy kind of red, but the edges to me look a little brownish or orange-ish. Do you get that?

Carmela: 35:31
Yeah, I do. I do. Yeah. I'm just kind of surprised how light it is.

Joe: 35:35
Yeah, me too.

Carmela: 35:36
It's almost like it looks kind of thin.

Joe: 35:39
It does it does. It doesn't look like a like a Cabernet Savvy.

Carmela: 35:43
Yeah, yeah.

Joe: 35:43
Okay, well, let's smell it, see what we think.

Carmela: 35:46
Well, it's smoky, a little smoky.

Joe: 35:48
Yeah. It's a little medicinal. I'm getting a little like cherry, cherry cough drop or something.

Carmela: 35:54
Uh ooh, a Lodin's. Is that what they're called? Ludens.

Joe: 35:57
I mean, it's not bad. It's it's cherry, but it's like it smells more like a Pinot to me.

Carmela: 36:01
Yeah, it's kind of current, like there's a little bit of currant or raisin on it, too. You know, it's a little bit of a dried, concentrated, juicy type of fruit, I guess.

Joe: 36:12
I am getting a little bit of what you said before, though, a little spiciness, actually.

Carmela: 36:15
Like I don't know if I said spicy.

Joe: 36:18
What did you say? Smoky. Smoky. Well, okay. A little bit of smoky, a little bit of spicy, a little bit of like smoked cayenne. How about that?

unknown: 36:27
Okay. Yeah.

Carmela: 36:28
The medicinal thing, that is interesting. That it does remind me of a cough medicine that the kids used to drink have to have on occasion.

Joe: 36:36
Especially on the swirl. But it's doesn't like the initial smell is not super fruity. It is more smoky or spicy to me.

Carmela: 36:43
Not bad though. I mean, it's not like it, it's not turning turning me off.

Joe: 36:46
No, no. Like if I yeah, exactly. If I smell that I wouldn't be like, oh god, I don't think I'm supposed to put this in my body.

Carmela: 36:52
No, not one of those.

Joe: 36:53
Okay, well, let's taste it and see what we think. It's pretty thin.

Carmela: 36:57
It I again, it almost tastes a little medicinal.

Joe: 37:00
Yeah, and it it's thin. Like you said, it looks thin. It tastes really thin.

Carmela: 37:05
It's kind of watered down.

Joe: 37:06
It tastes watered down. It almost doesn't have much body in it at all. No. It's not offensive at all.

Carmela: 37:12
No.

Joe: 37:12
But it's like there's nothing much going on.

Carmela: 37:14
Right. This isn't a serious wine.

Joe: 37:16
Oh, I got a weird aftertaste on it.

Carmela: 37:19
Like what are you tasting?

Joe: 37:20
Butterscotch.

Carmela: 37:21
Oh, weird.

Joe: 37:22
Or like something like boxy too. Like cardboard? Yeah, cardboardy or something.

Carmela: 37:28
That's not a good sign.

Joe: 37:30
It's not a good aftertaste.

Carmela: 37:31
Yeah, no, no. Well, I mean, again, I just feel like this is okay. Yeah. He's not happy.

Joe: 37:38
It's a strange aftertaste. It's almost like a it's like um packaging. No, it's weird. I'll think of it.

Carmela: 37:45
No, I'm kind of getting the same thing, too.

Joe: 37:47
Butterscotchy. But she shouldn't have that on a Cabernet Sunday.

Carmela: 37:50
It's really interesting. I just think it is, it feels like it's been cut. Like somebody was like, oh, we need to stretch this. And they Yes. I don't even know if that's the case. Put water in it. Yeah, it just tastes kind of watered. So it's not like terribly offensive, but this is not a serious wine.

Joe: 38:08
No.

Carmela: 38:08
You're not going to be drinking this and like coming up with a pairing that's going to be based off of this taste profile.

Joe: 38:15
No. And you know what? You remember when we were kids and they might pour you a little wine because you know we had Italian grandparents and stuff, and they put a little water in it. That's kind of what it tastes like. Yeah. It's watered down.

Carmela: 38:26
I do think this could be dangerous again, though.

Joe: 38:28
Oh, if you were like a college kid and you were like, oh, 12.5% alcohol, $4, let's go.

Carmela: 38:33
Yeah, I really don't like wine. And then all of a sudden you have this and you can like touch it. That's pretty good. Whoa, I do think that that's the kind like if you think this is wine, you're kind of not tasting wine, maybe.

Joe: 38:44
Yeah, no, I'll tell you what I was. So it's 12.5% alcohol, which is not high for a wine or a red wine and not high for Cabernet Sauvignon, but it doesn't taste like it's 12.5% alcohol.

Carmela: 38:56
No.

Joe: 38:56
Because it's watery.

Carmela: 38:57
It is.

Joe: 38:58
So I think you're right. It's like dangerous. What food might you pair with this Charles Shaw, Cabernet Sauvignon?

Carmela: 39:04
Well, I mean, I pizza?

Joe: 39:07
Yeah. Sandwich, grilled cheese. A grilled cheese sandwich.

Carmela: 39:11
Cheese would be actually pretty darn good.

Joe: 39:13
That's a little salty, a little toasty, a little fake fake American cheese. You don't like that as much, but I would put the fake American cheese.

Carmela: 39:20
Oh, Joe loves that. I love that.

unknown: 39:22
I know.

Carmela: 39:22
No rubbing. I mean, you're kind of a cheese whiz guy. You would have that.

Joe: 39:26
I would have cheese whiz. It'd be good with a little cheese whiz on crackers. This is, you know what this is? This is like your cheap movie and popcorn night.

Carmela: 39:35
It'd be good with popcorn. It would be really good popcorn. I do feel like this is this is what you pay for.

Joe: 39:40
Yeah, this is a college student wine.

Carmela: 39:42
Yeah.

Joe: 39:42
Like no judgment. No judgment. Like, this is what a college student would be like, hey, you want some wine? I like wine. Well, I don't like beer.

Carmela: 39:49
It's a good introduction, I guess.

Joe: 39:51
I fully agree. Like, this is not gonna offend anybody. No. It's not gonna impress anybody.

Carmela: 39:55
It doesn't taste bad. It just doesn't taste good. Yeah. I mean, I'm not again great.

Joe: 40:01
Like it's it does taste great.

Carmela: 40:03
It just needs it's it needs a lot more refining, a lot more. I don't think much attention was put into it.

Joe: 40:08
No. Okay, so here's the real deal. What rating I give this wine?

Carmela: 40:13
Tough. You know, I think I'm gonna give it a five.

Joe: 40:17
Yeah. I'm on the verge of four or five. I'm gonna give it a four.

Carmela: 40:21
Okay.

Joe: 40:21
Only because it's like I would not buy this wine. It would, it's almost on the verge of a five. Because if you served it to me, I'd probably drink it, but I would look for something else. It's not a good one. It's not a, you know, like again, not trying to yuck your yum. It's not my style of wine. Right. It's really thin. But I'm gonna give it a four. It's it's like I'm not gonna drink any more of it.

Speaker: 40:42
Okay.

Joe: 40:42
That's what I'm saying. So that's why it's not a it's not offensive. We have we've had wines that are like, oh, this is bad.

Carmela: 40:48
Yeah. It's not bad. It's just just not interesting to you. Exactly. And you're not gonna waste a glass of wine on it.

Joe: 40:53
Exactly. So what which of these wines are you finishing tonight?

Carmela: 40:55
Oh, I'll go with the Chardonnay.

Joe: 40:56
I know. I'm like, can't believe it. Yeah. Not bad wine. Okay,

Joe: 41:00
 let's talk about the taste profiles expected from California Chardonnay and Cabernet Sauvignon. California Chardonnay should be full-bodied, buttery, baked apple, pineapple, vanilla. Cooler coastal areas might have crisp, bite, bright citrus, green apple, and minerality. It's kind of in between those. Had some pineapple, had a little bit of vanilla, had some green apple. California Cabernet Sauvignon, fruit forward, full-bodied, not definitely not. Ripe flavors of black cherry, not black cherry. Blackcurrant, not really. Blackberry, nope. Vanilla, oak, not really. Baking spice, yes. Firm tannins, it had almost no tannins. And it was it was not medium, not even medium mouthfeel. No. The Charles Shaw winery says boasts a light straw color and aromas. What? Oh no's for the Chardonnay, sorry. The winery says it boasts a light straw color and aromas of apple and pear, commingling with warm vanilla, creamy on the palate. It wasn't really creamy, the Chardonnay.

Carmela: 41:52
No, I mean, at first glance or first taste, I was like, oh but it no.

Joe: 41:57
Now listen to this. This is what Sporked said. Some website called Sporked. You want oak? I said, you want oak? This Trader Joe's Chardonnay will body slam you with oak, brother.

Carmela: 42:06
Ooh. I thought we didn't get that at all.

Joe: 42:10
Do we not get the chardonnay? Well, you look at the bottle and just make sure that we got the Chardonnay. It says Chardonnay, right? Chardonnay. This is it says luckily there's some acidity to balance out the vanilla tinged Woodsea flavor. But you're licking a barrel. I didn't get that at all. Now, if we had gotten that, I would have not rated it as highly as we did.

Carmela: 42:28
Right. So good on them.

Joe: 42:30
Yeah. The Cabernet Sauvignon, we couldn't find anybody else other than the winery. They said a deep ruby colored wine. It's not really deep.

Carmela: 42:37
I don't think so.

Joe: 42:38
With aromatics of blackberry and vanilla. I don't think we got vanilla. I don't even know if we got blackberry.

Carmela: 42:43
We didn't talk about either.

Joe: 42:44
Yeah. What's your verdict on Charles Shaw two buck chuck wines?

Carmela: 42:48
I have no problem with people buying it. And I don't think they're like super offensive. I think they're pretty, like just kind of um a standard wine for like new wine drinkers or just somebody who wants to get an inexpensive bottle of wine and enjoy it.

Joe: 43:04
You just want to drink a bottle of wine on a Tuesday night and you don't want to pay a lot. Like you can do way worse than that $4 Chardonnay.

Speaker: 43:11
I agree.

Joe: 43:12
Like, so you know what? Color me more impressed than I thought. I thought we'd be like, oh, we hate these wines. No, we'd never they're not nearly they're they surprised me. I'm just gonna say that. They surprised me.

Speaker: 43:25
I agree.

Joe: 43:25
Pleasantly surprised me. Now it's time to head over to our news desk so that we can cover our wine in the news this week segment. And this news is not super recent, Carmella, but it absolutely fits the theme of the episode.

Speaker: 43:38
Okay.

Joe: 43:42
Wine in the news this week. This wine in the news this week comes to us from Catalina Ganella, writing for The Gothamist. And the article is called Trader Joe's Suing NYC Wine Shop for Using Joe Encroaching on Its Brand. So here's the Scoop, a wine shop opened in New York City, called itself Joe's Wine Co., decorated in a way that looks suspiciously like a Trader Joe's, and then agreed to stop and then didn't stop. Now here's more details. Okay. For 15 years, Trader Joe's operated a dedicated wine shop near Union Square in Manhattan. We know this. Then in 2022, the store abruptly closed. We also know this. The closure happened right as the workers were trying to unionize, so make of that what you will. So the neighborhood had a Trader Joe's on 14th Street, but no dedicated wine shop anymore. And into that gap, in the summer of 2024, a new shop opened just a few blocks away, and it called itself Joe's Wine Company.

Speaker: 44:44
Oh, wow.

Joe: 44:45
And now you might think, hey Joe, that's a that's my name, and it's a pretty common name. And Joe's Pizza is literally, well, not literally, but it's pretty close to next door to the shop. And Trader Joe's has never once sued Joe's Pizza. So, you know, if they're worried about Joe's name, right? Right. But Joe's Wine Company did go a bit too far because they also put a red circular logo. They also used wood paneling and advertised 100 wines under $12. So they were kind of getting over the edge there. Trader Joe's crew members started receiving inquiries from confused customers who thought Joe's wine company was part of Trader Joe's. So Trader Joe's reached out and tried to negotiate a settlement. And Joe's Wine Company agreed for a while. They took down the red banner and the circular logo, but by mid-November they put it all back up again. So Trader Joe's sued. Joe's Wine Company said that Joseph is a family name going back hundreds of years, and they said the store celebrates a family heritage of winemaking that dates back to 12th century Spain. On January 28th, 2025, a federal judge granted a permanent injunction against Joe's Wine Company. The court ruled that Trader Joe's trademarks had been infringed, and so Joe's wine company had to rebrand. They painted over the Joe's, they ripped out the wood paneling, and they reopened under the name of Taste Wine Company, which it turns out was the exact name of another wine shop that was opened before in the city.

Carmela: 46:14
So these guys they're just causing trouble.

Joe: 46:16
Yeah, and they're not very original. It's like you guys, you can find a different name. But anyway, Carmela, here's the question. If someone powerful came along and told you that you had to change your name of your shop, of your micro bakery baby cakes, because it was too similar to a famous brand, what would you do?

unknown: 46:34
Boy, oh boy.

Carmela: 46:35
Now it's hitting, you know, hitting hard. Hitting close to home.

Joe: 46:38
Just getting right down to it.

Carmela: 46:39
Wow. You know, I don't know. I could be flexible. I'd need some information. Okay. Some background as to why, to be convinced a little bit.

Joe: 46:48
Okay.

Carmela: 46:48
But then you know what? You gotta do what you gotta do.

Joe: 46:50
You gotta do what you gotta do. Right. Would you sue them?

Carmela: 46:53
I don't know. These are loaded questions. Do you think I should?

Joe: 46:56
Yes. I think you sue them for every penny they got. Sue them for more.

Carmela: 47:03
Oh.

Joe: 47:03
Take their to court.

Carmela: 47:05
Wow.

Joe: 47:05
No, I don't know. I

Joe: 47:06
 probably wouldn't. Okay, Carmilla, we have some listener shout-outs this week. We always appreciate you when you reach out to us and tell us what you think or what you're drinking. So here are some shout outs. Sanita, she left us a really nice long voice message via our website about her feelings about Maomi wine and how she felt frustrated that we were dismissive of it. So it's a good reminder on a few things. First, we do recognize that sometimes we do yuck somebody's yum. I mean, we do, we may give a rating that somebody's just like, gosh, I really like that wine. And that's we do need to be thoughtful about that. Like we shouldn't be totally rude or dismissive.

Carmela: 47:39
No, we should not be rude, that's for sure. But we have to also say that we would we're not gonna be honest.

Joe: 47:45
We're gonna be honest, and that's that is actually the second point. Like, we're gonna be honest, and you don't have to agree with us. No, our goal is we just tell you what we think, and you may agree or disagree with us on a lot of wines or whatever, and you kind of know the way we taste things and how we like things. So you use us as a reference point, and that reference may be hey, they like it, so I'm gonna like it, or they like it and I'm not gonna like it.

Carmela: 48:07
Right. And some of the more our like closest people in our lives like totally different wine than we do.

Joe: 48:13
Exactly.

Carmela: 48:14
And everybody understands, like we just have we're all unique.

Joe: 48:17
That's right. But you know what? Sanita was totally we love the feedback, she was totally in point for giving it, and it's a good reminder to us, so thank you for that. Adam uh reached out, he drank along with us on the Frappato episode, but he said, yeah, he said he had an unfiltered Frappato that was a little funky, so I think he just had a different experience. Yeah, he also said that we should absolutely go to Slovenia because he and his wife had a great time there. So cool. Yeah, Lenny on Instagram sent us a super sweet note that she was happy she found our podcast. And so we're really happy you found us too, Lenny. Thank you. And then Ryan, RJ Fergie Cooks on Instagram thought I was being breathless in my video, not trying to whisper. Which is an interesting interpretation. Thank you very much. What would you say? A little bit of both. Because I'm always nervous when you yell at me.

Carmela: 49:01
I I don't think I yell at you.

Joe: 49:04
No, you don't. And then Denise reached out. No! No, boy. Uh Denise reached out. She said her podcast helped her with a wine puzzle of Italy she was doing. Oh. And so I told her we want to see the puzzle when it's done.

Carmela: 49:15
Right. She was a huge puzzler.

Joe: 49:17
Yeah, and we want you to lift it up. Have you ever done that? Like make a puzzle and then you lift it up with your video. It's amazing. I didn't know you could do it. His girlfriend is like a super puzzler, and she showed us it.

Carmela: 49:29
Yes, so try that. But we don't want to be, you know, we don't want you to blame us if the thing calls the water.

Joe: 49:34
Yeah, just make it up again. Just do it again.

Carmela: 49:35
Oh shoot.

Joe: 49:36
Okay, here's some wines coming up in future episodes in case you want to drink along, drank along with us. We're gonna do Italian Sendgevie, but not Chianti, all sauce Pinot Gris, Lebanese wines, Kirkland Bordeaux, Kirkland Chaton de Pop, and Kirkland Moscato di Osti. And we have links to these in our show notes and actually the exact wines and vintages if you really want to know that. And

Joe: 49:56
 we love it when you drink along with us. But Carmela, it's time for us to go. So thank you for listening to us and supporting our show. And remember, we buy all of our own wine and we do all of the writing and the recording and editing to bring you a show every week because we love doing it. And our small little ask for you is that you please follow or subscribe to our podcast and also leave us a nice rating and review to help us grow our listeners. And a huge thank you to all of you who have done so already. You can also follow us on Instagram and Blue Sky, maybe TikTok at the Wine Pear Podcast. You can contact us on our website, thewinepearpodcast.com. Sign up for our email newsletter there, which is coming up very soon. Visit our shop wine section, where you can find links to buy the wines that we rate as buys in each episode. And we want to make content that you care about and you like, so send us a note or DM us, give us some feedback, let us know if there's wines you want us to try or winemaking areas of the world you're curious about and we'll take care of it. Joe at thewinepairpodcast.com is the email address. But with that, we're gonna sign off. So thank you once again. We'll see you next time. As we like to say, life is short. So stop drinking shitty wine. Bye-bye.