Italian Wine Adventure #27: Grillo! Sicily's Zippy White Wine!

Show Notes

Episode #241: Italian Wine Adventure #27: Grillo! Sicily's Zippy White Wine! 00:00

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KEY QUESTIONS

• What does Grillo wine taste like?
• Is Grillo similar to Sauvignon Blanc?
• Is Grillo the grape used to make Marsala?
• What food pairs well with Grillo?
• Is Grillo wine worth buying?
• Does Grillo keep its acidity in hot weather?

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Episode Overview and First Thoughts on Grillo  00:32
Hello fellow wine Wine Imbibers! And welcome to The Wine Pair Podcast. I’m Joe, your sommelier of reasonably priced wine, and this is my wife and my wine pairing partner in crime, Carmela. And we are The Wine Pair!

If you're new to our podcast, here's what we do: Every week we buy wines under $25 with our own money, taste them, and give you our brutally honest opinion on whether they're worth buying. Nobody pays us to review specific wines, we don't accept free bottles from wineries, and we're not afraid to call out a bad wine when we taste one. Decanter Magazine calls us fun, irreverent, chatty, and entertaining - so if that sounds like your vibe, welcome to our tribe of wine lovers.

Thank you for finally giving a tribe name. It only took about 240 odd episodes to get here.

Carmela, we are now officially in November, can you believe it?!? Time goes by so fast! Well, this week we are on another Italian Wine Adventure, and we are heading back to the island of Sicily to taste and review the white wine Grillo. Now, I don’t think either of us has ever had Grillo before, and we’ve never been to Sicily before, so this may be one more wine that pushes us ever closer to going to Sicily. For reference, we have done several wines from Sicily on the podcast, especially in the last year, including Frappato, Etna Rosso, Etna Bianco, and Nero d’Avola. So, we are adding this one to the list.

We’ll talk about Grillo in a few minutes, but before we do that, I wanted to spend a few minutes talking about Sicilian wine because it has been sort of a forgotten region of Italian wine with a not so great reputation until pretty recently. Sort of. And I say sort of because for a long time in the way back machine it was considered one of the best wine producing regions in the world with a strong reputation. So, let’s take a little trip to the past.

Wine has been made in Sicily for thousands of years, and in fact when the Greeks started settling Sicily around the eighth century BC as part of Magna Grecia, they brought their winemaking knowhow and their grapes and turned Sicily into a winemaking powerhouse in the Mediterranean.

By the time the Romans came along, some Sicilian wines were considered among the best in the world. One of the most famous wines that came from Sicily was called Mamertine which was made in the Messina area in the northeast part of the island. It was a sweet wine, and it even found its way to the banquets of Julius Caesar, and good old Pliny the Elder considered it among the most highly regarded wines of the time.

Sicilian grapes also made their way into other parts of Italy, and have genetic connections to grapes that can be found all over Italy. For example, Grecanico, a white grape grown in Sicily, is genetically identical to Garganega, the grape used to make Soave in northern Italy. Grecanico also has genetic connections to Trebbiano Toscano, which is found in wines like Vin Santo and Orvieto.  Nerello Mascalese, the red grape in Etna Rosso, is a genetic sibling of Gaglioppo, a red grape grown in neighboring Calabria and found in the wine Cirò. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean all these grapes originated in Sicily, but it does show just how connected Sicily wine is to the rest of Italian wine.

In the 1700s, an English merchant named John Woodhouse became enamored with the wines being made around the Sicilian port of Marsala. Yes, the wine is name after the city. The Brits liked their sweet, fortified wines like Port and Sherry, not just for the taste but because they could travel long distances, and so Marsala made it onto the list as well. In fact, Admiral Horatio Nelson, one of Britain's great naval heroes, was so impressed with the wine that he arranged for large quantities to be supplied to the British fleet around 1800.

So Sicilian wine had gone from being served at the banquets of Julius Caesar to being enjoyed by British gentlemen and sailors nearly 1,800 years later. But then things changed. For a lot of the 20th century, Sicilian winemakers focused on producing large quantities of inexpensive wine which was sold in bulk and shipped to other parts of Italy and France to be blended into their wines to add body, color, and alcohol, and to cut costs. As a result, Sicilian wines were no longer so highly regarded and were rarely found outside of Sicily as varietals of their own. Sicily was also very poor, and so they also lost many agricultural workers to either places in northern Italy or to countries like the United States where there were better, higher paying jobs. Hard to make wine without the people who know how to grow grapes.

But things started changing in the 1980s and 1990s, when a new generation of producers began investing in modern winemaking equipment, improving their vineyards, and focusing on making better wines, They started with international grapes like Chardonnay and Merlot, and then they started to turn more and more to Sicily's indigenous varieties of grapes.

Although Sicily had established its first DOC in 1968 for wines from Mount Etna and Marsala in 1969 and several others in the 1970s, very little of its wine production qualified for those important designations of quality and protection from the government. In fact, in the mid-1980s, less than 5% of Sicilian wine was classified as DOC. However, as the industry shifted toward making better wines, more regions received DOC recognition, and in 2005, Sicily received its first DOCG, the highest classification of Italian wine, for Cerasuolo di Vittoria. Then, in 2011, the island-wide Sicilia DOC was established, helping producers promote their wines under a more sweeping quality desigation. By 2015, 18% of the wine was under DOC and DOCG classifications. So, don’t sleep on Sicilian wine.

Sicily has become particularly well regarded for wines made from its indigenous grapes, including Nero d'Avola, Nerello Mascalese, Carricante, and Grillo, and of course it is Grillo which we are tasting and reviewing today, and we have two Grillow wines that we are super excited to try. And on that note, get to those Grillo wines so we can let you know if either or both are worth you running out and finding  . . .

But first . . . we have to do our shameless plug.

Thank you for listening to us and for supporting our show, and know that we buy all of the wine we taste and review every week so that we can give you real and honest reviews. If you like what you’re hearing, please subscribe to our podcast and leave us a five star rating and review so we can grow listeners.

We also love to hear from you and we always respond so you can follow us on Instagram and Bluesky and TikTok at thewinepairpodcast. You can contact us on our website thewinepairpodcast.com, and you can sign up for our email newsletter there and you can also send us a note at joe@thewinepairpodcast.com and let us know about wines your want us to review or just shoot the breeze, we love chatting it up.

And, as we do every week, we’ll tell you someone we think you should recommend The Wine Pair Podcast to - because the best way for us to grow listeners is when you tell your family and friends about us - and this week, we want you to recommend us to anyone who is unfamiliar with Sicilian wine and needs a little edumacation, or anyone who is heading to Sicily in the next year or so because they need to listen in to be prepared for the trip.


Topic: WTF is Grillo? 11:58

Carmela, let’s find out just what the eff Grillo is, shall we?

Ok, remember way back a few minutes ago when we were talking about the wine that the Romans loved called Mamertine? Well, many people believed that Grillo dates all the way back to Roman times and was the grape in Mamertine, but there's no good evidence to support that. It turns out that DNA testing screwed up what could have been a cool story, and instead today they know Grillo is not related to Mamertine, but rather is the love child of two other Sicilian varieties: Catarratto and Zibibbo (Muscat of Alexandria)

In fact, Grillo is actually a relatively new wine grape variety, at least as far as we know, because the first historical reference to it dates back to just 1873. For years, the story was that an Italian agronomist named Baron Antonio Mendola had created it by crossing Catarratto and Zibibbo. But researchers decided to investigate that story, and it turns out that the Baron may have been getting credit for something he didn't actually do.

In 2021, scientists published a study showing that a grape called Mendola (named after the Baron) had been created in 1869, was called Moscato Cerletti, and was genetically different from Grillo. Part of the confusion seems to have come from an 1881 French translation of an Italian wine reference that incorrectly attributed Grillo to Mendola. So, a possible translation mistake helped create a story that was repeated for years.

Today, we still don't know for sure who created Grillo. The mystery remains. What we do know is that Grillo became increasingly popular in western Sicily after the devastating phylloxera infestation of the late 19th century, when vineyards had to be replanted. And Grillo turned out to be a good choice because it was vigorous and could handle Sicily's hot, dry conditions. By 1930, it reportedly accounted for about 65% of the vineyards in the province of Trapani, which is in western Sicily.

Grillo eventually became a highly prized grape for Marsala, Sicily’s renowned fortified wine which we also talked about a few minutes ago. Marsala, we should note, is a blend. Grillo was well suited to be included in Marsala because of its high natural sugar, its structure, and its tendency to oxidize really well. So, it joined the wine grapes Catarrato and Inzolia as a key Marsala grape.
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After World War II and through the 1960s, demand for Marsala declined, and it became increasingly associated with inexpensive cooking wine. Then, because Grillo produces lower yields compared to Catarratto and other varieties, growers uprooted it, and plantings shrank drastically. By around 2000, Grillo accounted for just 3% of the vineyards in Trapani, a pretty dramatic decline. But do not fret, because it obviously made a comeback. This story is like one of those movies where halfway through you're like, they can’t kill the hero because there’s still an hour left.

Around 1990, Grillo went through a renaissance when Marsala winemaker Marco De Bartoli started bottling the Grillo as a single-varietal dry white wine. What he showed was that Grillo was a grape that could keep its vibrant acidity and great minerality even in the blistering heat of Sicily. Remember, acidity in grapes is hard to keep in hot weather, and this happens often in California wines, and is starting to happen in more areas as temperatures rise. So, be on the lookout for Grillo because it may be transplanted into other hot weather areas because it can maintain that acidity even in great heat. And in fact, Hanna Winery planted Grillo in 2023 at its Dry Creek Mountain Vineyard in California's Dry Creek Valley, and in 2026 released what it claims is California's first commercially produced Grillo wine.

Following De Bartoli's breakthrough, the wine started to be planted like crazy across western Sicily, and according to 2021 figures, Grillo covered approximately 8,600 hectares, representing nearly 9% of Sicily's vineyards, centered in Trapani, Agrigento, and Palermo. Today, Grillo is recognized as a flagship white under the broad Sicilia DOC, and winemakers craft it into multiple styles, from crisp and citrusy, to complex and textured when it is allowed to rest on the lees (which again is the yeast and stuff left over from the fermentation process,) and with skin-contact maceration, or even light oak. They are also making it into sparkling spumante-style wines and sweet passito wines as well.

Grillo is starting to be recognized and exported more and more. Sommeliers are adding it to their wine lists as an alternative to traditional crisp acidy white wines, and it has a good price tag which sommeliers love as well, and publications like The Wall Street Journal and Food & Wine have started to write about it as a wine to watch. In fact, Grillo sales increased 20% by volume in 2023 compared with the previous year. And they say, whoever they are, that fans of wines like Sauvignon Blanc, Pinot Grigio, and Albariño are starting to discover it as a less expensive and fresher, zippier wine.

Grillo is also starting to show-up in natural and low-intervention wine circles, too, and you can find it increasingly as an Orange wine as well  (remember, Orange wine is a white wine that spends a lot of time on the skins to get some color and funk, the white wine version of Rose - so you can talk about maceration in mixed company).

So, I am very excited to try this wine, and I have a sneaking suspicion it is going to be a wine we like! So, that’s enough information, and now it’s time to learn a little more about the specific wines we are drinking today. Whaddya say?

Grillo Wines We Chose for This Episode 20:50

As usual, the wines we have chosen for this episode are under $25, and they should be relatively easy to find because I bought them at a local grocery store with a pretty good wine selection called Town & Country Market. I am relatively confident you can find one or both of these wines because Town & Country Markets surely use distributors that source wines from importers that serve significant parts of the US. If you really want to find Grillo, look for a wine shop or store with a good Italian wine selection or natural wine selection, or, as always, visit your local wine shop and ask them to find it for you and they will be happy to. 

The first wine we are going to drink is the 2025 Poggio Anima Uriel Grillo - Sicilia. The story behind the name Uriel is interesting. The importer says: 
Uriel, the archangel of repentance whose translation is ‘God of Light’, played a very important role in ancient texts as the ‘rescuer’. Uriel was the angel who checked each of the doors during Passover in order to ensure safety for God’s people. The correlation here is that, as the most important white grape on Sicily, Grillo is the ‘principal light.’ It’s a very resilient grape and one that withstands a lot of heat and wind on Sicily.

This wine is both organic and vegan, and as for the winemaking, they say that after de-stemming and macerating for 2-3 hours on the skin which helps give some color and tannin and flavor to the wine, the grapes were subject to a soft, whole-berry press before a gentle fining (fining is the process of clarifying a wine). Fermentation took place in temperature-controlled stainless-steel tanks. The wine was then left on its lees for about about 20 days before being bottled with a one-micron filtration and sulfur addition.

Before anyone freaks out, the use of sulfur in wine is quite common, and it is used to stop the wine from browning, and it keeps out wild yeasts, mold, and bacteria. There are definitely some people who are sensitive to sulfur or sulfite, but it is a small percentage, like 1%. Still, if you are sensitive to it, that is something you should know. And, in general, white wines and sweet wines contain higher sulfite levels. 

Back to the wine, it is a single vineyard wine, and the vineyard’s name is Salemi, the soils are sandy clay which is good for water stress, and this wine is a DOC. 

The next wine we are going to drink is the 2023 Brugnano Vinovanta V90 Grillo, and this one got a 90 rating from the Austrian wine reviewing group called Falstaff. It is also a DOC wine. There was not a ton of information about this wine, but here is what I found: Soft pressing in complete protection from the air, fermentation at a controlled temperature, refinement in steel tanks for approximately four months.

They say they use the Guyot training method for the vines, which means in the winter they pick one healthy branch from the last year, bend it sideways, and tie it to a wire. The winery is run by brothers Francesco and Giuseppe Brugnano who are trying to combine new methods with old techniques, like sustainable production and native grapes. But this is about all I got. 

So, I think it’s time to get to drinking! We’ll take a quick break and be right back. And, if you have these wines or similar wines, drink along with us 

LINKS TO SOURCES FOR THESE SPECIFIC WINES

• https://vsimports.com/italy/poggio-anima/uriel/
• https://brugnano.it/vini-siciliani/v90-grillo/ 

2025 Poggio Anima Uriel Grillo - Sicilia, 2023 Brugnano Vinovanta V90 Grillo Wine Tasting, Pairing, and Review 24:50

Wine: Poggio Anima Uriel Grillo - Sicilia
Region: Italy, Sicily
Vintage: 2025
Price: $16.99
Retailer: Town & Country
Alcohol: 12.5%
Grapes: Grillo
Professional Rating: Vivino 3.8

What we tasted and smelled in this Poggio Anima Uriel Grillo - Sicilia: 

• Color: Lemon yellow,  sunshine yellow
• On the nose: Lemon, peach, nectarine, tropical fruit, pineapple, sea spray, sea water, mint, herbs, rich, lifted
• In the mouth: Delicious, zippy, pops in your mouth, almost effervescent, lemon cream, sorbet, orange creamsicle, buttery, crisp, a little bitterness and stone on the end

Food to pair with this Poggio Anima Uriel Grillo - Sicilia: Aglio e olio, garlicky foods, Carbonara, clam sauce, steamed clams and mussels, pasta with butter, spaghetti with butter and herbs, white pizza, focaccia, fish, sushi with wasabi, prawns in garlic sauce, spicy chow mein, spicy wontons, good holiday wine. Punches above its weight
 
As a reminder on our rating scale, we rate on a scale of 1-10, with no half points, where 7 and above means that we would buy it, and 4 and below means that we are likely to pour it down the sink, and a 5 or 6 means we are likely to drink it and finish it, but we are probably not going to buy it. 

Poggio Anima Uriel Grillo - Sicilia Wine Rating: 

• Joe: 9/10
• Carmela: 9/10

Wine: Brugnano Vinovanta V90 Grillo
Region: Italy, Sicily
Vintage: 2023
Price: $19.99
Retailer: Town & Country
Alcohol: 12.5%
Grapes: Grillo
Professional Rating: F 90 Vivino 3.8

What we tasted and smelled in this Brugnano Vinovanta V90 Grillo: 

• Color: Hay or straw yellow
• On the nose: Gasoline, glue, lemon, peach, creamy, banana, creamy pear, citrus
• In the mouth: Lemon concentrate, might be oaked, bitter on the end, tannin, simple

Food to pair with this Brugnano Vinovanta V90 Grillo: white fish, poultry, turkey, chicken

Brugnano Vinovanta V90 Grillo Wine Rating:
Joe: 6/10
Carmela: 6/10



Which one of these are you finishing tonight?
Carmela: Poggio Anima Uriel Grillo - Sicilia
Joe: Poggio Anima Uriel Grillo - Sicilia


The Test: Did we nail the taste profiles expected from Grillo?  38:05

• General 
  • Fruit notes: Lemon, lime, grapefruit, green apple, white peach, and apricot,  tropical notes like mango and papaya in warmer microclimates.
  • Orange blossom, jasmine, wildflowers, and fresh herbs like thyme or fennel.
  • A signature almond or marzipan finish, flinty minerality, and a distinct sea-breeze salinity
• Poggio Anima Uriel Grillo - Sicilia
  • Winery: Golden straw in the glass, bursting with white peach, grapefruit, and a hit of fresh thyme. Clean and mid-weight, with salty edges and a flicker of sweetness to round it out. Bright, balanced, and built to refresh.
  • France 44: Expect a medium-bodied white layered with saline notes, bright citrus, and lively minerality. This is summer in a glass.
• Brugnano Vinovanta V90 Grillo
  • Winery: Straw yellow with light green highlights. A varietal aroma, with clear citrus and floral notes emerging on the nose. A lively and pleasant palate. Fresh, savory, and persistent.
  • Falstaff: Olive green to straw yellow, bright. Fragrant of white flowers and lemon, juicy on the palate, with clear fruit, lemon, grass, peach, beautiful salinity in the aftertaste, certain drive.

What is our verdict on Grillo? 39:49
We are so happy we tried it. It is now on the list and rotation. One of those wines where we are wondering how we have not had them yet! A great white wine!


And now it is time to head over to our news desk so that we can cover our wine in the news this week segment.

Wine in the news this week: French authorities seized 1.8 million Euros in assets in an alleged Châteauneuf-du-Pape wine fraud 40:35

• https://www.vinetur.com/en/20261021109413/french-authorities-seized-euro18-million-in-assets-in-an-alleged-chateauneuf-du-pape-wine-fraud.html 

Our wine in the news this week comes from Vinetur which is a Spanish online wine magazine, and the article is called "French authorities seized €1.8 million in assets in an alleged Châteauneuf-du-Pape wine fraud." As always, the links to this article and all of the articles we use for research are in the show notes as always.

We all know that Châteauneuf-du-Pape is one of the most famous wines from the southern Rhône, and there are super strict rules about where the grapes come from, how it’s made, and all that jazz, which is one of the reasons it is so expensive and highly prized. Well, according to French police, a producer and wine merchant in the Hérault, which is in southern France on the Mediterranean coast and not Châteauneuf at all, decided he wanted in on it.

So, from across his 2020, 2021 and 2022 harvests he allegedly hid about 90,000 bottles worth of his own wine from the inspectors who are supposed to keep track of it. Then a middleman, who also worked in the wine trade, went looking for buyers and négociants to sell it to as Châteauneuf-du-Pape.

And it worked, at least for a while, because police say the scheme brought in about fourteen times what the wine was actually worth. A large share of that money went into his personal lifestyle, including a high-end car, a competition show-jumping horse, and a chalet in Megève, a very expensive ski town in the French Alps, worth about 1.6 million euros.

Then, in March of this year, they finally caught him. Police have not said how they first caught on, but the local gendarmerie and a regional squad that investigates wine and spirits fraud built the case, and he was taken into custody. Investigators then went after the money and seized more than 1.8 million euros in assets, including the chalet and over 220,000 euros in investments.

He has not been convicted, his name has not been released, and the case is headed to court. That is where a judge will decide whether he loses the chalet for good, and it is also where we may finally find out what the négociants who bought the wine actually knew.

So, Carmela, what do you think about all of these shenanigans? And why are people so willing to lie and cheat and steal?!?



Listener Shoutouts 44:20

• Janyne: another “toy” for Mabel. Muffin tins!
• Fran on Spotify sent a note saying she thinks our tasting preferences are similar
• Lara on Spotify said we should check out a boxed wine from NZ call Dicey
• Adrienne aka artmetalgirl sent us a video on Insta of the worst sommelier ever. Hilarious. 
• Hasini reached out to talk about how medications can change your sense of taste and smell, and it is so true!
• Chef Paul shared a Nerello Mascarelo called Gaio Gaio he really liked

Wines coming up in future episodes in case you want to drink along with us 46:19

• Erbaluce: Cieck Erbaluce di Caluso 2024, Luigi Ferrando La Torrazza Erbaluce di Caluso 2024
• Limoux Cremant: Vanderpump Cremant di Limoux Brut, Faire La Fete Brut Rose
• Cote du Rhone: Domaine de la Janasse Cotes du Rhone Reserve 2022, E. Guigal Cotes du Rhone Rouge 2023
• Burgundy Cremant: Simonnet-Febvre Cremant de Bourgogne Brut, JCB No. 69 Brut Rose Cremant de Bourgogne
• Mondeuse: 2020 Bernard et Christophe Richel Savoie Mondeuse, 2023 Domaine Jean Vullien & Fils Mondeuse

Outro and how to find The Wine Pair Podcast 46:38

Thank you for listening to us and for supporting our show, and remember, we buy all of our own wine and we do all of the writing and recording and editing to bring you a show every week because we absolutely love doing it, and our small little ask for you is that you please follow or subscribe to our podcast and also please leave us a nice rating and review  to help us grow our listeners - and a huge thank you to all of you who have done so already! 

You can also follow us on Instagram and Bluesky and TikTok at thewinepairpodcast. You can contact us on our website thewinepairpodcast.com, and you can sign up for our email newsletter there and you can also visit our “Shop Wine” section where you can find links to buy the wines that we rate as buys in each episode.  I will also note that on our website, if you are curious about a wine we have covered in the past, we do have a pretty good search functionality, so you can use that find wines you want to know more about. 

And we want to make content you care about and you like, so send us a note or DM us and give us some feedback or let us know if there are wines you want us to try or wine making areas of the world you are curious about - and we’ll take care of it! joe@thewinepairpodcast.com 

Alright, with that, we are going to sign off, so thanks again, and we will see you next time. And, as we say, life is short, so stop drinking shitty wine.

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FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

Q. What does Grillo wine taste like?
A. Grillo is a dry, crisp white with citrus, herbs, and a salty, sea-air quality. A good bottle tastes zippy and lemony, with peach and pineapple, a creamy lemon-sorbet edge, and a slightly bitter, stony finish. Weaker bottles can taste muted, with less acidity and more bitterness.

Q. Is Grillo similar to Sauvignon Blanc?
A. In style, yes. Like Sauvignon Blanc and Albariño, Grillo is a dry, zippy, high-acid white, with citrus, herbs, and a salty, sea-air edge. If those are your go-to crisp whites, Grillo is well worth trying, especially a vibrant, lemony bottle.

Q. Is Grillo the grape used to make Marsala?
A. Yes. Grillo is one of the principal white grapes of Marsala, Sicily's fortified wine. As Marsala fell out of fashion, growers in the 1950s and 1960s replaced much of the low-yielding Grillo with more productive grapes. Its revival began in 1990, when Marsala producer Marco De Bartoli started making Grillo on its own as a dry white wine.

Q. What food pairs well with Grillo?
A. Grillo shines with garlicky, buttery, and seafood dishes: aglio e olio, pasta with clam sauce, steamed clams and mussels, prawns in garlic sauce, white pizza, and focaccia. A zippy bottle also handles heat, like sushi with wasabi or spicy wontons. Softer, less acidic Grillo suit flaky white fish, roast chicken, or turkey.

Q. Is Grillo wine worth buying?
A. Yes, especially if you like crisp, high-acid whites. A good Grillo offers complex, vibrant flavor for under $20 and punches above its weight. Look in shops with a good Italian or natural-wine selection, or even a well-stocked grocery store. Quality varies by bottle: a muted one with less acidity can still be a decent, easy-drinking wine, just less exciting.

Q. Does Grillo keep its acidity in hot weather?
A. Yes. Grillo's big advantage is holding on to its acidity in a hot climate, which is how it stays crisp in Sicily's heat. That makes it a grape worth watching as vineyards get warmer, and it has already reached California, where the state's first Grillo vines were planted in Sonoma County in 2023.

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RESEARCH ARTICLES AND LINKS FOR THIS EPISODE

• https://winefolly.com/grapes/grillo/
• https://www.grape-experiences.com/2023/02/understanding-grillo-exciting-full-bodied-white-wine-sicily/
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grillo
• https://wineinsiders.com/blogs/wine-101-types-of-wines-grapes/grillo-wine?srsltid=AU7gw4W9DdLiC3jmW5NhhIHJTlLW8haNRApYMt79yAbPvN4Iv9_WDom6
• https://thesommchef.com/grillo-wine-review/
• https://www.cellartours.com/blog/italy/a-second-chance-grillo-grape-variety
• https://www.foodandwine.com/grillo-wine-7562390
• https://www.vinhood.com/en/magazine-en/grillo-the-native-grape-variety-that-tells-the-story-of-sicily/
• https://www.winewithseth.com/winewiki/grillo/
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qSQiVba5W0
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-s25ffxEwU
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUq_kkjV21E
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhTeRW16h6Q
• https://www.thewinechef.com/blog/grillo-wine-a-taste-of-sicilian-excellence
• https://cantinebarbera.it/en/sent-form/47-myblog-marilena-barbera/674-grillo-the-new-cool-sicilian-wine.html
• https://www.gerardo.de/en/blog/rebsorte/grillo.php
• https://www.winewithpaige.com/grillo-wine/
• https://cheapwineratings.com/2013/09/16/grillo-by-the-sea-in-western-sicily/
• https://napavalleywineacademy.com/blogs/pouring-points/sicilys-unsung-grapes-grillo-and-zibibbo?srsltid=AU7gw4V8vkoPfGwddl6aE711pD8dtD5YucLEQno_0V9hJgstbHw9kxBe
• https://winetly.com/en-eu/blogs/magazine/why-grillo-is-sicily-s-must-know-white-wine?srsltid=AU7gw4WDw03J8mQzWP-iL3drzzUhRVqK1Bh58GmpYqOuOcm0wkoN4Gjl
• https://app.ckbk.com/reference/wine05383c19s001e182e007/ancient-history 
• https://www.attalus.org/pliny/hn14b.html 
• https://penelope.uchicago.edu/encyclopaedia_romana/wine/vintage.html 
• https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7874015/ 
• https://www.wineenthusiast.com/culture/wine/white-wine-southern-italy-guide/ 
• https://www.umbriatourism.it/en/w/trebbiano-toscano-o-procanico-en 
• https://cantineflorio.it/en/news/florio-and-the-british-origins-of-marsala/ 
• https://www.wineenthusiast.com/basics/beginners-guide-to-the-wines-of-sicily/ 
• https://www.wineenthusiast.com/culture/wine/best-sicilian-white-wines/ 
• https://www.decanter.com/features/sicilys-big-brand-dilemma-246662/ 
• https://thewinesofetna.com/consortium/ 
• https://www.cerasuolovittoria.it/il-disciplinare/ 
• https://siciliadoc.wine/en/the-consortium/ 
• https://jazz.antoniogalloni.com/articles/sicily-the-challenge-of-turning-great-potential-into-great-wines-dec-2015 
• https://www.decanter.com/premium/a-guide-to-sicilys-native-grape-varieties-517942/ 
• https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-economic-history/article/international-migration-responses-to-modern-europes-most-destructive-earthquake-messina-and-reggio-calabria-1908/534D15C5D780B8F6AC9BFC1AE6026EB5 

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FULL TRANSCRIPT

Joe: 00:00
Carmela, we love a zippy acidic white wine, don't we?

Speaker 4: 00:05
We do.

Joe: 00:05
And there are lots of great white wines like that to choose from Savignon Blanc, Avarino. We have a whole list. And today, we might have found a new wine to put on the list. Woo! It's called Grillo. You've never heard of it? Either did we. But you know what? Today, you're gonna learn all about it, and we think you'll go and love it.

Carmela: 00:25
Mm-hmm. Hello, fellow wine imbibers.

Joe: 00:35
And welcome to the Wine Pair Podcast. I'm Joe, your Simolier of Reasonably Priced Wine, and this is my wife and my wine pairing partner in Crime Carmilla.

Speaker 4: 00:44
Hi there!

Joe: 00:44
And we are the Wine Pair. Woo! If you're new to our podcast, here's what we do. Every week we buy wines under $25 with our own money. We taste them and we give you our brutally honest opinion on whether they're worth buying or not. Nobody pays us to review specific wines, and we don't accept free bottles from wineries. And we're also not afraid to call out a bad wine when we taste one. And Decanter magazine calls us fun, irreverent, chatty, and entertaining. So if that sounds like your vibe, welcome to our tribe of wine lovers and imbibers.

Carmela: 01:13
Oh my gosh.

Joe: 01:14
And thank you, Carmelo, for finally, after more than 240 episodes. Seriously? Finally doing a tribe name.

Carmela: 01:22
Well, I have to say, guys, in listening land, I woke up in the middle of the night thinking to myself, I have never given a tribe name. And I'm constantly like judgy to poor Joe. A little judgy. And I just, oh my goodness, it was haunting me all night. And so then I was like, I've got to come up with something. And that's the best I could do.

Joe: 01:40
That's pretty good. Well, we'll we'll let you do more in the future. But Carmela.

Carmela: 01:43
Well, I don't know. Do you want me to do more?

Joe: 01:45
Probably not. But all right, Carmela, we are now officially in November. Can you believe it? I can't. I know. Time goes by so fast. I know. And this week we are on another Italian wine adventure, and we are heading back to the island of Sicily to taste and review the white wine Grillo. Okay. Now, I don't think either of us has ever had Grillo before. Oh, I don't think so. And we've never been to Sicily before. We haven't. And so this may be one more wine that just pushes us closer to going to Sicily.

Carmela: 02:14
Oh my. Did you hear that, everybody? Remember that.

Joe: 02:17
Yeah, because if we're not there.

Carmela: 02:18
We're holding Joe to it.

Joe: 02:19
Wow. And for reference, we have done several wines from Sicily on the podcast, especially in the last year, including Frappato, Etna Rosso, Etna Bianco, and Nero di Avola. So we're adding this one to the list as well. Great. Okay, so we're gonna talk about Grillo in a few minutes, but before we do that, I did want to spend a few minutes. You guys, Mabel has gone absolutely crazy. It's fine. I did want to spend a few minutes talking about Sicilian wine because it's been sort of a forgotten region of Italian wine with a not so great reputation. I'm surprised. Until pretty recently. Sort of. Okay. And I say sort of because for a long time, in the way, way back, the real way back machine that they call history, it was considered one of the best wine-producing regions in the world. I believe it. And had a really good reputation. So you want to What happened? Well, let's take a little trip into the past and find out.

Carmela: 03:12
I love it. A little detour to kind of hear what happened back then.

Joe: 03:16
That's right. Storytime. It's story time. Wine Carmela, wine has been made in Sicily for thousands of years, and Mabel knows all about it. And in fact, when the Greeks started settling Sicily around the 8th century BC as part of Magna Grecia, they brought their winemaking know-how and their grapes and turned Sicily into a winemaking powerhouse in the Mediterranean. Love that for Sicily. I know. And by the time the Romans came along, some Sicilian wines were considered among the best in the world. One of the most famous wines that came that came from Sicily was called Mamertine or Mamertine. Now remember that one. It's gonna come back again.

Carmela: 03:57
Oh my gosh, okay.

Joe: 03:58
And it was made in the Messina area in the northeast part of the island. It was a sweet wine, and it even found its way to the banquets of Julius Caesar. No way. Which didn't end up very well for him. But you know, I wonder if it was there when he got stabbed. But anyway, and good old Pliny the Elder considered it among the most highly regarded wines of the time. Sicilian grapes also made their way into other parts of Italy and have genetic connections to grapes that can be found all over the country. So, for example, Grecanico, a white grape grown in Sicily, is genetically identical to garganega, the grape used to make suave in northern Italy, which we we love suave. Grecanico also has genetic connections to Trebbiano Toscano, which is found in wines like Vinsanto and Orvieto, which we also like. Yes. And then Narello Mascalese, the red grape in Etno Rosso, is a genetic sibling of Galliopo, which is a red grape grown in neighboring Calabria and found in the wine Ciro, which we also did an episode on. Right. Now that doesn't necessarily mean that all these grapes originated in Sicily. It does show how connected Sicily wine is to the rest of Italian wines.

Carmela: 05:10
Right. So what tell me what is going on then? Like, and they're making a comeback.

Joe: 05:15
Well, there's there's a little bit more history to go.

Carmela: 05:17
Oh, oh, okay. You ready for a discount?

Joe: 05:19
Yeah, a little bit more. So impatient. I know, yeah, I know. You always are impatient. Uh me, I'm the paragon of patience.

Carmela: 05:26
I mean, absolutely.

Joe: 05:27
They call me Mr. Patience. Patient pants. Sometimes I'd say put on your patient pants.

Carmela: 05:31
Right. Wait, do you say that?

Joe: 05:32
I do. To who? You tell yourself? I guess so. If you have to wait in lines and stuff. If you're ready for waiting in lines, you bring your patient pants.

Carmela: 05:41
Okay.

Joe: 05:41
That's a good one. It is. In the 1700s, an English merchant named John Woodhouse became enamored with the wines being made around the Sicilian port of Marsala. And yes, the wine is named. Marsala. Yep, the wine is named.

Carmela: 05:56
I you know, I bake with Marsala.

Joe: 05:58
I well, we're gonna talk about that. That will come up in just like a second.

Carmela: 06:02
And in the case, we also use Vinsanto.

Joe: 06:05
Oh my goodness.

Carmela: 06:06
Anyway.

Joe: 06:07
That's good. No, I like this. The Brits liked their sweet wines and their fortified wines like port and sherry, not just for the taste, but because they could travel long distances. And so Marsala made it onto the list as well. In fact, Admiral Horatio Nelson, one of Britain's great naval heroes, was so impressed with the wine that he arranged for large quantities of it to be supplied to the British fleet around 1800. So Sicilian wine had gone from being served at the banquets of Julius Caesar to being enjoyed by British gentlemen and sailors nearly 1800 years later, but then Carmela things changed. For a lot of the 20th century, Sicilian winemakers focused on producing large quantities of inexpensive wine, which was sold in bulk and shipped to other parts of Italy and France to be blended into their wines to add things like body and color and alcohol and also to cut costs.

Carmela: 07:01
Makes sense.

Joe: 07:02
And as a result, Sicilian wines were no longer so highly regarded, and they were rarely found outside of Sicily as varietals of their own. How do you feel about that? Well, I'm I'm glad that it's coming back. Yeah. The other thing that happened, and we've talked about this before, is that Sicily, like a lot of southern Italy, was very poor, and so they lost a lot of agricultural workers to either places in northern Italy or to countries like the United States where there were better and higher paying jobs. So it's hard to make wine when the people growing the grapes ain't around anymore.

Carmela: 07:35
Right, right. Changes everything.

Joe: 07:37
It does. But then things started changing to answer your question in the 1980s and 1990s, when a new generation of producers began investing in modern winemaking equipment, improving their vineyards, and focusing on making better wines. And they started first with international grapes like Chardonnay and Merlot, and then they started to turn more and more to Sicily's indigenous grapes.

Carmela: 07:59
Okay.

Joe: 08:00
And although Sicily had established its first DOC in 1968 for wines from Mount Etna and Marsala in 1969, and then several others in the 1970s, very little of its wine production qualified for those important designations of quality and protection from the government. In fact, in the mid-1980s, less than 5% of Sicilian wine was classified as DOC. So that's not a lot. But as the industry shifted toward making better wines, more regions received DOC recognition. In 2005, we mentioned this before in one of our Sicily episodes. Sicily received its first DOCG, which is the highest classification of Italian wine for Cerasuolo di Vittoria. And then in 2011, the whole island got a DOC. Oh wow. Yeah, they created a Sicilia. That's how you say it's not Sicilia, it's Sicilia. Right. DOC. And it helped producers promote their wines under a more sweeping qualities at designation.

Carmela: 08:59
Wow.

Joe: 08:59
So by 2015, 18% of the wine was under DOC and DOCG classifications. And I'm sure it's more now. I just couldn't find it when I researched on the internet.

Carmela: 09:09
What?

Joe: 09:10
But don't sleep on Sicilian wine.

Carmela: 09:12
No.

Joe: 09:12
But you can sleep on Sicilian women. No, I shouldn't say that. Anyway. What? What? What? Anyway, Sicily has become particularly well regarded for wines made from its indigenous grapes, including, like we've said, Nero de Avala, Nerello Mascalese, Caricante, and Grillo. And of course, it is Grillo, which we are tasting and reviewing today. Kind of sounds like a Star Wars character, doesn't it? Grillo.

Carmela: 09:38
I don't watch Star Trek. Star Wars is Star. Oh, sorry. You better say that.

Joe: 09:42
Your Star Trek's on your mind because of Patrick Stewart. Right, right. Wow. Because you're a big thing.

Carmela: 09:46
I do watch Star Wars. No, but I knew who he was.

Joe: 09:49
You did. You did. We have two Grillo wines that we are super excited to try, and we're gonna let you know if either or both of them are worth running out and finding. But first, you gotta do our shameless plug. That's right. So thank you for listening to us and supporting our show. And know that we buy all the wine we taste and review every week so that we can give you real and honest reviews. And if you like what you're hearing, please subscribe to our podcast and leave us a nice five-star rating and review so we can grow listeners and thanks to everybody who's done that. We'd love to hear from you. We always respond. So you can follow us on Instagram and Blue Sky and TikTok at the WinePair Podcast. You can contact us on our website, thewinepairpodcast.com. You can sign up for our email newsletter there. And by the way, on the day that this episode comes out, the new newsletter will have come out because it always comes out the first day of the month. So if you missed it, just send me a note at Joe at the WinePair Podcast.com. Tell me how you're doing. Let me know.

Speaker 4: 10:41
He will hand deliver it. To your in mail in your no, he will hand deliver it to your email inbox.

Joe: 10:48
Okay. Oh, you just want me to say hand deliver it. Okay. All right. I will. You give me your address and I will fly to you and find you and uh stalk you and give you the uh a printout. So much. That's too much. Um, and as we do every week, we'll tell you someone we think you should recommend the wine. Although, if you did want to invite us over for dinner or something, we'd probably show up.

Carmela: 11:08
Oh, we will absolutely. I mean, again, we have an open invitation for a Sunday night dinner in Seattle. But we want we would be happy to dine with you wherever you live.

Joe: 11:18
Just invite us out. You never know.

Carmela: 11:20
We're not really those that kind of people, we're not that kind of couple. What kind of couple? Like would it that we'd invite swingers? No, we're not swingers. But like we also wouldn't just invite ourselves. Oh, you're right. But if you want to invite us, right.

Joe: 11:33
Well, now you may have to also pay for the plane tickets. Right. No, you won't have to do that. But yeah, anyway, okay. Here's someone we think you should recommend the wine pair podcast to because the best way for us to grow listeners is when you tell your family and friends about us. And this week we want you to recommend us to anyone who is unfamiliar with Sicilian wine and needs a little education, or anyone who's heading to Sicily in the next year or so because they need to listen and be prepared.

Carmela: 11:58
All right.

Joe: 11:59
So, Carmilla, let's find out just what the f Grillo is, shall we? Let's do it. Okay, remember way back a few minutes ago when we were talking about the wine that Romans love called Mamertine.

Carmela: 12:10
Oh my gosh, you remember. I don't know how. I don't know how it's kind of remarkable. Just amazing like that.

Joe: 12:17
Well, you are amazing. Well, Carmilla, many people believed that grillo dates all the way back to Roman times and was the grape and mamertine. But there is no good evidence to support it, and it turns out that DNA testing screwed up what could have been a really cool story. And instead, today they know that Grillo is not related to Mamertine, but rather is the love child of two other Sicilian varieties.

Carmela: 12:42
I mean, leave it to Sicily to have like a story like that.

Joe: 12:45
Exactly.

Carmela: 12:45
Wow, it seems kind of like white lotus-like.

Joe: 12:48
It does. I mean, don't sleep on Italian women. What? I said you could. Anyway, the varieties Cattarato and Zabibo, which is also known as Muscat of Alexandria. Oh. Now, in fact, Grillo is actually a relatively new grape wine variety, at least as far as we know, because the first historical reference to it dates back to just 1873, just a few years before I was born. Oh, right. For years, the story was that an Italian agronomist named Baron Antonio Mendola had created it by crossing Cattarato and Zabibo. But researchers decided to investigate that story, and it turns out that the Baron may have been getting credit for something he didn't actually do. So there's a lot of confusion about this wine. I'm confused. In 2021, scientists published a study showing that the grape called Mendola, named after the Baron, had been created in 1869 and was actually Moscato Cialetti, and was genetically different from Grillo. So there you go. Now, part of the confusion seems to have come from an 1881 French translation, you can never trust the French, of an Italian wine reference that incorrectly attributed Grillot to Mendola. So a possible translation mistake helped create a story that has been repeated for years. It always happens. I don't know. I don't know anyway. Okay, today we still don't know for sure who created Grillo. The mystery remains, but what we do know is that Grillo became increasingly popular in Western Sicily after the devastating phyloxra infestation of the late 19th century, when vineyards all over Europe had to be replanted. Grillo turned out to be a good choice because it's vigorous and could handle Sicily's hot, dry conditions. Okay. And so by 1930, it reportedly accounted for about 65% of the vineyards in the province of Trapani.

Carmela: 14:38
It really took off then.

Joe: 14:39
It really took off. Grillo eventually became highly prized as a grape for Marsala. Amazing. Yes, the fortified wine that Sicily is known for and that you cook with and bake with. Marsala is a blend, by the way. Grillo was well suited to be included in Marsala because it has high natural sugar, it has good structure, and it has a tendency to oxidize well. Right. Which a lot of times is not something you really want in a grape, but for a sweet wine, you want it to oxidize. That's actually part of the taste that you want. And it joined the other grapes, caterato and insolia, as a key marsala grape. Got it. Now, after World War II and through the 1960s, demand for marsala actually declined and it became increasingly associated with inexpensive cooking wine.

Carmela: 15:29
Oh dear.

Joe: 15:30
Instead of a drinking wine.

Carmela: 15:32
Then because Well, I don't, I mean, do people really drink marsala just on their own? I don't know.

Joe: 15:37
On its own. But ladies and gentlemen, let us know. I don't asked you guys so many questions last week and nobody really got back to us.

Carmela: 15:44
Maybe it was intimidating.

Joe: 15:45
Maybe it was.

Carmela: 15:45
Maybe it was like too many, too much. Tell us how you feel about Marsala. I mean, you don't have to, but I'm just curious. I've never just slipped on a glass of marsala.

Joe: 15:53
No, I haven't either, but maybe we will tonight. Who knows? Okay. Now, because Grillo produces lower yields compared to caterato and other varieties in Marsala, growers actually started uprooting it and planting shrank drastically. And by around 2,000, Grillo accounted for just 3% of the vineyards in Trapani. From 65% to 3%. But don't fret, Carmela.

Carmela: 16:18
I know this is worrying me.

Joe: 16:20
Because it obviously made a comeback. It's like, you know, in those movies where the hero is in really big trouble, but it's like halfway through the movie, and you're like, he can't die now, or she can't die now.

Carmela: 16:30
At that point, you know, you know that that's not gonna happen. So that's how you feel about this wine.

Joe: 16:35
Well, that's what's happening because we wouldn't have done an episode on it if it had died.

Carmela: 16:38
Right, like and that's the end. The end. Bye. Sorry. Yeah.

Joe: 16:41
Okay. No, around 1990, Grillo went through a renaissance when Marsala winemaker Marco di Bartoli started bottling names. I know. He started bottling the Grillo as a single varietal dry white wine. And what he showed was that Grillo was a grape that could keep its acidity and minerality, even in the blistering heat of Sicily. And remember, acidity in grapes is hard to keep in hot weather. And this happens often in California wines, which is one of the reasons why we tend not to love on the California wines sometimes. And it's starting to happen more as temperatures rise in different areas of the world. So maybe we should be on the lookout for Grillo because it may be great for hot weather areas because it can maintain that acidity even in heat.

Carmela: 17:30
It's sun-loving.

Joe: 17:31
Yeah, it loves the sun and it keeps its acidity.

Carmela: 17:34
It can take, it can take it.

Joe: 17:36
It's like you, it can take the heat. I can't take the heat. You can't take the heat. Yeah, yeah. I wither. Now, in fact, Carmella, back to the wine.

Carmela: 17:42
Okay.

Joe: 17:43
Hannah Winery planted Grillo in 2023 at its Dry Creek Mountain Vineyard in California's Dry Creek Valley. And in 2026, that's this year, they released what it claims is California's first commercially produced Grillo wine. Wow. So we may see more of it. Amazing. Now, following De Bartoli's breakthrough, the wine started to be planted like crazy across western Sicily. And according to 2021 figures, Grillo covered approximately 8,600 hectares, representing nearly 9% of Sicily's vineyards.

Carmela: 18:17
Oh wow.

Joe: 18:17
Centered around Trapani, Argrigento, and Palermo. And today Grillo is recognized as a flagship white under the broad Sicilia DOC, and winemakers make it into many styles: crisp and citrusy, complex and textured, skin contact, maceration, which sounds dirty, but it's not. And even a little bit of oaking. And they're also making it into sparkling spumante style.

Speaker 4: 18:42
Oh wow.

Joe: 18:43
So I'd like to check that out. Yes. And Grillo is starting to be recognized and exported more and more. Samolers are adding it to their wine lists as an alternative to. Have you seen it? I don't recognize it yet, but but they're saying that some Samoliers are starting to add it in there because it's a great acidic, it's supposed to be a great acidic white wine. But less expensive.

Speaker 4: 19:05
Okay.

Joe: 19:06
Publications like The Wall Street Journal and Food and Wine have started to write about it as a wine to watch. In fact, Green Low sales increased 20% in 2023 compared to the previous year.

Carmela: 19:17
Oh my goodness. Where is it being bought mostly?

Joe: 19:20
I this is a great question. I don't know. But you know what?

Carmela: 19:25
I'll tell you where I try to hold off my questions, people, because I usually throw Joe and then he's like, Why did you just ask? But that time I reacted well.

Joe: 19:34
I reacted well.

Carmela: 19:37
Yeah, so because there's a lot of editing when I ask a dumb question, but you didn't mind that one.

Joe: 19:42
No, and here's the real reel is you know who's bought it? Me. I found it in a grocery store.

Carmela: 19:48
Well, I mean, yeah, for the podcast. Yes. Oh, I thought you were saying you had bought it before. And I was like, wait a minute.

Joe: 19:53
No, but what I'm saying is I got it at a grocery store. So it's out there. It's out there. It's out there. Fans of wines, also like Savignon Blanc, Pinot Grigio, and Alberino, are just starting to discover it as a less expensive alternative. Okay. So I think it might be a wine that we like. Yeah. And Grillo is also starting to show up, as I mentioned, in natural and low intervention wine circles. You can find it increasingly as an orange wine as well. And remember, what orange wine is, it's like the sister of rose. Rose is red wine where it's and skin contact for just a little bit to get a little bit of color. Orange wine is white wine where the skin contact or maceration is for. You are gonna milk that, aren't you? I am. Sometimes weeks or months to get that orange color. Got it. So I am excited to try this wine again. I think it's gonna be a wine we like. Let's hope so. And I so now I think it's time to find out a little bit more about the wines we're drinking this week. What do you say? Let's do it. Okay. As usual, the wines we have chosen for this episode are under $25, and they should be relatively easy to find because, again, I bought them at a local grocery store that has a pretty good wine selection. It's called Town and Country Markets.

Carmela: 21:02
Oh, I love Town and Country.

Joe: 21:03
We love it. And I'm relatively confident you can find one or both of these wines because Town and Country Markets surely uses distributors that source wines from importers that serve significant parts of the U.S. So just look around, see if you can find it. And if you really want to find Grillo, look for a wine shop or a store with a good Italian wine selection or a natural wine selection. And as always, visit your local wine shop and ask them to find it for you, and they will be happy to. The first wine we're gonna drink is the 2025 Poggio Anima Uriel Grillo Sicilia. Now the story behind the name Uriel is interesting. You ready for what the importers are?

Carmela: 21:41
I love all these stories. Okay.

Joe: 21:42
Uriel is the archangel of repentance. And the name translates to God of light, and he played a very important role in ancient texts as a rescuer. Uriel was the angel who checked each of the doors during Passover in order to ensure safety for God's. Chosen people. And the correlation here is that as the most important white grape on Sicily, Grillo is the principal light. It's a resilient grape and one that withstands a lot of heat and wind on Sicily. That's the story from the distributor. Lovely. Now, this wine is both organic and vegan. And as for the winemaking, they say that after destemming and macerating for two to three hours on the skin, which gives color and tannin and flavor, the grapes were subject to a soft whole berry press before a gentle fining. And fining is the process of clarifying wine. And then fermentation took place in temperature-controlled stainless steel tanks. The wine was left on the lees. Remember, the lees is the yeast and stuff left over from the fermentation process. And it was left on the lees for about 20 days before being bottled. The wine is a single vineyard wine, and the vineyard's name is Saleme. And the soils are sandy clay, which is good for water stress, and water stress is good for wine grapes. Remember that. And this wine is a DOC. The next wine we're going to drink is the 2023 Brunnano, that's B-R-U-G-N-A-N-O. Brunnano V90 V90 Grillo. And this one got a 90 rating from the Austrian wine reviewing group called Falstaff. Ah. It was also a DOC. There was not a ton of information about this wine, but here's what I found. Seriously, this is what I found. Soft pressing in complete protection from the air, fermentation at controlled temperature, refinement in steel tanks for approximately four months.

Carmela: 23:39
Concise.

Joe: 23:40
To the point.

Carmela: 23:41
What are you gonna what else are you gonna say?

Joe: 23:44
What else do you need to know? Well, here's the other thing. They say they use the Gaio G-U-Y-O-T training method for the vines, which means that in the winter, they pick one healthy branch from the last year, they bend it sideways, tie it to a wire, and that's the one that grows the grapes for that year.

Speaker 4: 24:01
I kind of love that. I don't know, it's kind of fun. Is that normal?

Joe: 24:04
Yeah, that's a very famous way. There's different like techniques, and that's one of the techniques. Okay. The winery is run by brothers Francesco and Giuseppe Brunano.

Carmela: 24:14
Oh, nice.

Joe: 24:14
Yes, and they're trying to combine new methods with old techniques like sustainable production and native grapes. But you know what? That's about all I got. Well, that's not bad. So I think it's time to get drinking. Let's go for it. Okay, if you have a grill, an Italian wine, a Sicilian wine, an Italian Sicilian white wine. If you just gotta just drink along with it.

Carmela: 24:35
We have a Sicilian to drink with. Ooh, if you're drinking on a Sicilian, wait, then let's How did I know that that would lead to that? I should be careful what I say.

Joe: 24:44
You should, and I will be right back.

Carmela: 24:46
Okay.

Joe: 24:50
Okay, we're back and we're ready to try our first wine. This is the Boggio Anima Uria Grillo from Sicilia. It's from Sicily, Italy. It's the 2025 vintage. It was $16.99 at Town and Country, so not bad at all. 12.5% alcohol, 100% grill, and no professional ratings that I could find. Vivino had a 3.8, but you know, whatever. Carmela, what let's talk about the bottle first? It's a screw cap. We love a good screw cap.

Carmela: 25:19
Yeah, yeah, it's kind of cute. It's kind of an interesting mythological creature.

Joe: 25:24
Could it be the archangel?

Carmela: 25:26
I mean, perhaps it's got a lion head with a it's a king.

Joe: 25:30
I think so. I think that's who it is, man. It's kind of cool. It is cool. I like it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, um, let's talk about the color of the wine.

Carmela: 25:38
It's a lemon.

Joe: 25:39
Lemony, yeah.

Carmela: 25:40
Do you think so?

Joe: 25:41
Sunshine yellow. It's it's light.

Carmela: 25:43
It's very light.

Joe: 25:44
Yeah, it's a nice, pretty yellow color. All right. Well, let's smell it and see what we think. There's a lot going on.

Carmela: 25:50
It's really nice, yeah. I'm smelling lemon. I'm getting also maybe maybe some peach or nectarine.

Joe: 25:57
Totally peach. That's what I was getting. Yeah.

Carmela: 25:59
But I am getting some citrus on it. Are you?

Joe: 26:01
Yeah, for sure. Maybe a little like tropical fruit, too. Like maybe a little pineapple or something. Okay. It's nice. It's got like sea spray or sea water or something on the back of it. Maybe it's got a little bit of stone, like a little bit of minerality, but I feel like smell it. See if you get a little bit of that.

Carmela: 26:20
I'm also getting like, and I don't know where this is coming from. A little bit of mint, maybe.

Joe: 26:25
Oh, maybe a little herb.

Carmela: 26:26
Yeah. Are you getting that?

Joe: 26:28
Yeah, I think I might be getting a little herbs.

Carmela: 26:30
Yeah, some herbs.

Joe: 26:31
As the Brits call it the herbs. Yeah, I like it. It's actually quite pretty smelling. I like it. It smells kind of rich too, don't you think?

Carmela: 26:41
Yeah, it's definitely got a nice bouquet. It's not like, you know, it's not like you go, oh wait, I'm not really getting much out of it. There's a there, like you said, there's a kind of a lot going on.

Joe: 26:51
Yeah, it's kind of lifted too. It really does kind of come out of the glass. Okay, I think we taste it and see what we think. Okay. Wow. Ooh. That's delicious. That's really good. It's kind of zippy.

Carmela: 27:03
I was gonna say almost pops in your mouth at the end. Almost like some pop rocks. Don't you think? There's a burst of flavor at the end. Like it's yeah, I I like it. I really like it.

Joe: 27:13
I'm kind of getting a little like I think it was on the lees. And it, I think they said that it was on the lee's. Yeah. I'm getting that kind of creaminess. It's almost a little like lemon cream, a little sorbet, or a little orange cream, like a cream sickle, like an orange cream sickle.

Carmela: 27:29
Yes, I like that. Yeah, there is a hint of creaminess or buttery or something that's yeah, a little um a little more intense. You know, like it's crisp and lemony, but there's something a little, it's almost thick.

Joe: 27:45
It's got a little body, it's like a nice Sicilian woman.

Carmela: 27:48
What? People, if you're from Sicily, this is a really positive thing.

Joe: 27:53
This is a positive thing. Yes. I mean, you know, anyway. I think I think it's it's and it's got nice minerality on the end, like a little bit of bitterness on the end, a little bit of pith, but also a little bit of like stone or like sea salt.

Carmela: 28:08
Yeah, yeah. Um, and like I do think there's a pop at the end, like it's almost a little bit effervescent, too. You know, like a little bit sparkly at the end.

Joe: 28:17
I totally agree. It's really nice. I really like it.

Carmela: 28:21
And this would be very good with food. What would you like to have with it? Oh my gosh, Carmela. The I never ask you. No, I'm not sure. I'm so like I just sit here and like, you know, you just you know talk at me and you get to like ask me all the questions.

Joe: 28:33
Well, I've been reading my sort of nephew's uh college essay, which is excellent, and I think all you would be amazing with this.

Carmela: 28:41
Oh, well, he's underage, so let's not tell him.

Joe: 28:44
No, he's not he's got a little sip of wine.

Carmela: 28:46
Oh, he likes wine, I'm sure of it.

Joe: 28:48
No, I think that would be great.

Carmela: 28:49
I think Yeah, all you something garlicky would be.

Joe: 28:52
Garlicky and spicy, yes. I think carbonara would be really nice.

Carmela: 28:58
I could do a clam sauce though, too.

Joe: 29:00
Totally. And I think uh steamed clams and mussels would be really good, a lot of seafood, but I think white pastas and lighter pastas. I mean, a pasta with butter, I mean, that's kind of what alloyo is anyway, but butter and garlic would be fantastic.

Carmela: 29:14
Well, right. Well, allo is not, I mean, it's olive oil.

Joe: 29:16
You're not gonna- I know, I know, but you know, it's not that difficult.

Carmela: 29:19
Yeah, but you could put like some, I mean, obviously we do this, but like like you want to get parsley and red peppers.

Joe: 29:24
Herbs.

Carmela: 29:25
Yes, I think that would be so good with this.

Joe: 29:28
I agree. I think white pizza, I think like those kind of focaccia.

Carmela: 29:33
This could stand up to a lot. I think for like you said it from the get-go, though, like the garlic piece. Oh, this should be really good with a garlicky sauce. Swiss, you know.

Joe: 29:43
Swess. I think so too. What other like fish, sushi?

Carmela: 29:47
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I yeah, because you could you sushi with like the wasabi would be so good, it would really partner nicely. Um, you know, I think any type of fish, but I am feeling like something about shellfish would be really tasty. I mean, any type of scampi, like you know, fish with like prawns in a um pot with a pasta would be delicious. They make a delicious pasta and prawns and a brandy sauce at Salvatores. Oh, and they just got written up.

Joe: 30:18
In like if you ever come to Seattle, if you guys come to Seattle and you're like, we don't want to go to your house for dinner, but we'd like you guys to take us somewhere, we'll take you guys to the show.

Carmela: 30:26
Or if you don't even want to see us and you have no interest in that, go to South's go to Sal's. Like, that's a place we really love and stand by. It's on Roosevelt.

Joe: 30:34
Oh my gosh, she's gonna be Salvatore's. Yes, you're right.

Carmela: 30:37
And I would love to have this wine with that, those prawns.

Joe: 30:41
I agree. And you know what would be good with this is it a little bit of hot pepper. I just think it would go really nice. A little bit just in food, like I just think this would be. Like red pepper flakes? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like red pepper flakes. I think foods with that in it would do really well with this. I also have in my head like spicy Chow Main. Okay, and I have in my head a din tai fung those spicy wontons or whatever they are. So good, too. I think that would do. I think spicy foods would be nice. Yeah, yeah.

Carmela: 31:08
Okay, Joe, so what rating are you gonna give this wine?

Joe: 31:10
Well, can you give the folks at home a reminder on a rating scale? No. Okay, well, we rate on a scale of one to ten. We don't give half points. Seven and above means we're gonna buy it. Four below means we're pouring it down the sink. Five or six means we're all right with it. We'll drink it, but it's not our favorite. We're not gonna buy it. Right. What uh what am I gonna give this wine?

Carmela: 31:29
What are you gonna give it?

Joe: 31:30
Easily an eight. I am I'm gonna give it a nine. I like it. I like it a lot. Okay, I think it's a solid wine. I I think we like white wines.

Carmela: 31:40
This is so good.

Joe: 31:41
It's got good complexity. I think people would like for holiday table, you want a wine to serve that people are gonna go, what is that? Like, people would love it. Yeah. What are you gonna give?

Carmela: 31:53
You know what's so funny. I was kind of feeling the same way as you, as I was just about to say eight, but I'm bringing it up to a nine. Yeah, it's excellent. The other thing is, is there's nothing about this that's off-putting. I mean, sometimes we I really like a new wine that's a new white wine that we try, but there's a little bit of this a weird bitterness, or I feel like this is still very smooth, too. Agree. So I'm gonna give it a nine also.

Joe: 32:14
And $16.99, it's a great price. Screw cap. Like it's it's uh easy to drink, but it's also it punches above its weight.

Carmela: 32:23
Yeah.

Joe: 32:24
For sure.

Carmela: 32:24
Wow, I like that, Joe.

Joe: 32:26
Okay, thanks, Carmella. Uh, we're gonna take a break and we're gonna try our next wine. Hi. Okay, we're back and we're ready to try our next wine. This is the Brunnano V90 V90 Grillo. It's also from Sicilia, Italy. This is the 2023 vintage. This was $19.99 at Town and Country, 12.5% alcohol, so the same amount, 100% grillo. And this is the one Falstaff gave a 90, Vivino also gave a 3.8. But Carmelo, talk a little bit about the bottle.

Carmela: 33:00
I mean, not much to say. It's I mean, it's it's a little plain. Yeah. It's nice though. Yeah, simple. It'd be nice on any table.

Joe: 33:07
Any table.

Carmela: 33:08
Yeah.

Joe: 33:08
Color of the wine.

Carmela: 33:09
Uh darker than the other one. Um it's yellow. Kind of hay.

Joe: 33:14
Yeah. Hey, hay, straw. No, it's definitely yellow.

Carmela: 33:19
Yeah.

Joe: 33:19
Like, it's like pee-pee.

Carmela: 33:21
I was waiting for that. She's a 12-year-old boy that comes out every once in a while. That's me.

Joe: 33:26
Okay. Let's smell it and see what we think.

Carmela: 33:29
Oh boy. Hmm. Well, I'm not getting it right now, but I was kind of at first getting a little bit of gasoline.

Joe: 33:34
Okay. Maybe a touch, maybe a little glue, as I as I swirl it a little glue. I think you're right.

Carmela: 33:39
Just a touch, just a touch.

Joe: 33:41
I think it's got also, again, a little bit, it's like more tamped down than the last one in terms of like it's got some lemon, but not as strong. It's got some peach, but not as strong. What else are you getting?

Carmela: 33:53
I agree. It's a little more watered down. It's not as intense as what we were smelling in the other wine. But there is a little bit of that creamy. I mean, a little bit of even like banana or you know, I don't know why sometimes that comes to mind, but a little bit of creaminess.

Joe: 34:08
I think creamy as well. I mean, maybe a little bit of I mean it's kind of peach more, but maybe a little bit of pear. Like a creamy pear. Okay, yeah.

Carmela: 34:19
Okay.

Joe: 34:19
Not as much sea salt or sea seawater, not as much minerality. It's got a little, but not as much. Yeah, lemony though. I guess citrus. Citrus. Okay, well, let's taste it and see what we think. Okay. It's just tamped down. Like it's less, it's less interesting to me than the than the first one.

Carmela: 34:37
It's um it tastes a little bit like the lemon um concentrate that you get in the little containers.

Joe: 34:45
I'm also suspicious that it might be oaked.

Carmela: 34:48
It's not hitting me the same way.

Joe: 34:49
No, it I feel like it doesn't have as much acidity. It's not, you know, the first one was so vibrant and zippy and zesty. You were saying like almost effervescent. Yes. And this one is like muted. It's not as exciting.

Carmela: 35:01
No, I don't know why, but it doesn't, it kind of is like you said, tamped down.

Joe: 35:05
More bitterness on the end. It's got tannin. Like I think this was maybe macerated, don't say anything, but for a a while longer, like it's got more mouthfeel on it, but it it lacks the like really zippy acidity that I was loving about the first one.

Carmela: 35:22
I agree. I agree. I don't know if I am not getting a whole lot of complexity in this one.

Joe: 35:27
I agree. Yeah. I just I think it's funny because usually we start with the less expensive wine just because maybe the more expensive wine is going to be better. I think in this case, I mean they're similar in price, but in this case, I think if I had tried the this one first, I might not have as strong of a reaction to it because it's not a bad wine. No. But it's just like not as kind of simple. Yeah, it's not as exciting. What food might you pair with this wine?

Carmela: 35:51
Well, I think the same kinds of things. I actually think that this could do something a little more delicate though, too. I don't know if you need to like do something outrageous with this. Uh, you know, like it can still stand the heat and all that kind of stuff, but you could do more of like a lighter fish, you know, like a flaky fish. I don't think you need as spicy or I just think that this might get a little lost.

Joe: 36:14
Yeah. Although I was thinking that maybe this is more of a poultry wine.

Carmela: 36:18
Oh.

Joe: 36:19
Like turkey or chicken, a baked chicken or something like that.

Carmela: 36:23
A lemony chicken.

Joe: 36:24
Not even lemony. I was thinking maybe more. That's why. Like I think the first one, yeah, lemony chicken. This one, just like a baked chicken, like a regular old baked chicken with a sort of an herb and salt. Or like a turkey, a little salty. A little roasted chicken. Yeah, or turkey with a little gravy on it. So that's that's what I'm thinking.

Carmela: 36:43
But I Oh so maybe even like Thanksgiving, you would do something like this.

Joe: 36:46
I think so, but I think I'd still serve the first one. Yeah, for sure. For sure. It is like I think it it's because it's muted, it won't overpower a lot of food. So I I get where you're going on it.

Carmela: 36:58
I also think that yes, like it to stand up to the other wine, that one really hit us hard. Like we really liked it. That this is probably, you know, it's a good wine. It's a decent wine. There's nothing offensive at all about it.

Joe: 37:10
No. I'm really having trouble with the rating. Because again, like I think maybe if I had had it first, maybe I'd give it a solid seven.

Carmela: 37:20
I know that's my hard thing too. I because I don't know if I had the choice, I'm not sure I would buy this one.

Joe: 37:26
No, I think I'm gonna have to give it a six. And I I I'm worried that it's a little biased by the first wine, but what do what do you think?

Carmela: 37:33
I hate to follow suit, but I think I'm gonna give it a six as well.

Joe: 37:36
Yeah, I mean, I would drink it. Like if it was served, I'd be really happy drinking it. I think it's a good wine. Um, maybe we're being overly harsh. Like, you know, as you're listening to this, if you find it and you like this wine, I I can totally get with that. Like, I don't think You're not mad about it. No, I don't think it's a bad wine at all. I just think the first one was so exciting that we're having trouble judging this one fairly.

Carmela: 37:59
Yeah, I agree.

Joe: 37:59
Okay, Carmela, which of these are you finishing tonight?

Carmela: 38:02
Well, we're going for the first guy.

Joe: 38:04
The podio uriel. Okay, let's see if we nailed the taste profiles expected from Ghilo. In general, it has fruit notes of lemon, lime, grapefruit, green apple, white peach, apricot, tropical notes like mango, papaya, and then it has orange blossom. We were getting some orange in the first one, jasmine, wildflowers, fresh herbs, okay, like thyme and fennel. And sometimes it has an almond or marzipan finish.

Carmela: 38:29
I think this one has more of that, don't you think? I like that, yes. We do.

Joe: 38:33
What do you call it? Raw, raw almond. And a distinct sea breeze salinity. Okay.

Carmela: 38:39
Definitely getting that on the first one.

Joe: 38:40
The poggio, the winery says golden straw in the glass. Okay. Bursting with white peach, grapefruit, and a hint of fresh thyme. Okay. Clean and midweight, salty edges, flicker of sweetness rounded out. France 44, some some website says expect medium-bodied white, layered with saline notes, bright citrus, lively minerality, summer in a glass. I think that's a great way to describe it.

Carmela: 39:04
I think so too. In fact, when I was looking at the bottle, it was kind of a like a sunny looking bottle.

Joe: 39:11
Except for the crazy guy on the um.

Carmela: 39:13
No, but it was so kind of bright and I liked it.

Joe: 39:17
The Brunano, the winery says straw yellow with light green highlights, varietal aroma, clear citrus, floral notes, lively and pleasant, fresh, savory, and persistent. I do think it was a little savory. Fallstaff says olive green to straw yellow, bright, fragrant of white flowers and lemon, juicy on the palate, clear fruit, lemon, grass, peach, beautiful salinity in the aftertaste, certain drive. Again, like I just think it was a it's a good wine. You know, maybe I'm being a little bit harsh on the rating. I just the first one just knocked us out.

Carmela: 39:48
Yeah, agree.

Joe: 39:49
What's the verdict on Grillo?

Carmela: 39:51
I'm so happy we tried this. This is definitely on the list. Oh my gosh. Like in the rotation, everything.

Joe: 39:58
This is another one of those wines like Gavi and Suave, where it's like, where have these wines been? Like everything you've been all my life. It's true though, but like everybody talks about, oh, Pinot Grigio, and everybody talks about Savignon Blanc. And there are awesome wines like this Crilo, where it's like, oh my gosh, why are Alberinho? Like, why aren't we drinking more of this? Why don't we know about this? Tell us people. Why? Why tell us another thing? Reach out.

Speaker 4: 40:24
If you know.

Joe: 40:25
Yeah, if you know, you know. All right, now it's time to head over to our news desk so that we can cover our wine in the news this week segment. Wine in the news this week. Our wine in the news this week comes from Vinour, which is a Spanish online wine magazine. And the article is entitled French Authorities Seize 1.8 million euro in assets in an alleged Chateau Neuf de Pop wine fraud. So we've moved from Italian wine to French wine fraud.

Carmela: 40:59
Oh my goodness. Do they know that they're gonna get caught? Don't they read the news?

Joe: 41:04
And don't they listen to the podcast and know that we're just gonna talk about them? These people, come on. If you're gonna do right wrong, then do wrong right.

Carmela: 41:13
Wait. What do you say? Wait, wait. If you can't do wrong right, do right right.

Joe: 41:18
There you go. I like it. Right? So dumb. Links to this article and all of the articles we use for research are in our show notes, as always. Okay, we all know that Chateau Neuf du pop is one of the most famous wines from the southern Rhone, and there are super strict rules about where the grapes come from, how it's made, all that jazz, right? And it's one of the reasons why it's so expensive and so highly prized. Well, Carmella, according to the French police, a producer and wine merchant in the Herol, which is in the southern France on the Mediterranean coast and not Chateauneuf, decided he wanted in on it. So from across his 2021 and 2022 harvests, he allegedly hid about 90,000 bottles worth of his own wine from the inspectors who are supposed to keep track of it. Then a middleman who also worked in the wine trade went looking for buyers and negotiants to sell it to as Chateauneuf-de-Pas.

Carmela: 42:15
Oh man. And it worked. I can't believe that.

Joe: 42:17
At least for a while, because police say the scheme brought in about 14 times what the wine was actually worth.

Carmela: 42:24
Oh, wow.

Joe: 42:24
A large share of that money went into this guy's personal lifestyle, including a high-end car. Not bad. A competition show jumping horse. What? And a chalet and megavet, which is a very expensive ski town in the French Alps, worth about 1.6 million euros.

Carmela: 42:40
Okay, what would you buy?

Joe: 42:42
Yeah, I like that. Let's we're gonna go there. That's the question. And then in March of this year, they finally caught him. Police have not said how they first caught on, but the local gendarme and a regional squad that investigates wine and spirits fraud built the case and he was taken into custody. And investigators that then went after the money and seized more than 1.8 million euros in assets, including the chalet, and over 220,000 euros in investments. Wow. Now he hasn't been convicted, his name hasn't been released, and the case is headed to court, and that's where the judge will decide if he loses the chalet or not. But uh, to your point, if you did a bunch of wine fraud and you got millions of euros in value, what would you do? What would you spend it on? Yeah. And what would you buy?

Carmela: 43:26
It'd have to be something that you would spend it on, knowing that there's a very good chance that it would be taken away.

Joe: 43:31
So on that note, you know what I'd do? What? Experiences. Oh, yeah. I would have taken a lot of trips. We would have taken a lot of trips stayed in nice places because they can't take that. They can't take that away from me, right? Like, spend your money, people. If you're gonna get caught, don't buy stuff with it.

Carmela: 43:48
That's a really bad question. We should not have gone down this road.

Joe: 43:51
I like it. What would we want to know what you guys would do? Will you let us know?

Carmela: 43:54
No, and we are with your fraudulent money. We're not condoning it, I promise. Mabel.

Joe: 44:00
What would you buy?

Carmela: 44:01
She's sick about it. She's like, I didn't know you had it in you guys.

Joe: 44:05
Okay. Uh, and by the way, Mabel's gonna get fixed this week.

Carmela: 44:09
And she's been so good. This guy, do you realize you haven't heard her squeak much this time? I don't know. She's kind of growing up.

Joe: 44:17
She is. She's becoming a big girl.

Carmela: 44:19
Wow.

Joe: 44:20
Okay, Carmela, some listener shout-outs a bunch this week. We had Janine. Janine keeps sending us ideas for toys for Mabel. But she's like you. She has good ideas for toys that don't you don't have to buy. Like she did the one with balls and oh, and the cupcake holder thing.

Carmela: 44:35
Cupcake holder, yeah. I mean, you don't want to look, we have baskets and bags full of Mabel toys. Yeah. And usually I buy. No, usually, I mean 90% of the time, Joe is buying them. So I do, and if you have more of those, Janine, send them our way.

Joe: 44:50
Yeah. Well, she has a lot. Okay. Yeah, for sure.

Carmela: 44:52
Oh man.

Joe: 44:53
And then Fran on Spotify sent a note saying she thinks our tasting preferences are very similar to hers, which we like. Lara on Spotify said we should check out a boxed wine from New Zealand called Dicey. Because remember, last week we didn't. Right, I remember. And we didn't love it, but we're going to keep trying.

Carmela: 45:08
But we love the packaging.

Joe: 45:10
We did love the packaging. Adrienne, aka art metal girl, she sent us a video on Instagram of the worst samolier ever. It is super hilarious.

Speaker 4: 45:19
Oh my goodness.

Joe: 45:20
Loved it. Hassini reached out. She wanted to talk about how medications can change your sense of taste and smell. And it's true, Hassini, right? Like it's like one of the weird things about medications sometimes. It's like side effects. Yeah, sometimes something you love, all of a sudden you're like, I don't know if I love that anymore. Right. That's kind of a weird thing. Anyway. And then Chef Paul he reached out and he shared a Norello with us called Gaio Gaio, and he really liked it. So we love that kind of stuff, though. So again, you know, reach out, let us know how you're doing. Let us know if you got the newsletter, and if you didn't, let me, you know, send me a plane ticket and we'll hang out.

Carmela: 45:53
Right. And you know what? Tell us a restaurant in your city that we can visit.

Joe: 45:56
Go to with you.

Carmela: 45:57
So, right, right. Or if you don't want us to actually track you down, a place that we can go when we're in your space. Yeah. Right? Just like we told you about Sal's. And if you don't want to see us, still go to Sal's if you're in Seattle.

Joe: 46:09
Yeah, we won't mind. You don't have to take us to Seattle.

Carmela: 46:11
Just tell Sal that you're friends with us.

Joe: 46:13
Yeah, exactly. And he'll be like, who?

Carmela: 46:16
No.

Joe: 46:18
He knows us. Okay, wines coming up in future episodes in case you want to drink along with us. Erbaluce. And remember, in our show notes, you can get the exact vintages, the names of the wines, links even if you want to. So we're gonna do Erbaluce, Le Maux Cremont, Cote de Ronne, Burgundy Cremont, Mon and Mondayuse, among some others. But Carmela, you know what? That's it. So thank you for listening to us and for supporting our show. And remember, we buy all of our own wine and we do all the writing and recording and editing to bring you a show every week because we love doing it. And look, our small little ask of you is that you please follow or subscribe to our podcast and also leave us a beautiful, nice five-star rating and review to help us grow listeners. And a huge thank you to everybody who does that. You can follow us on Instagram and Blue Sky and TikTok at the Wine Prayer Podcast. You can contact us on our website, thewinepairpodcast.com, sign up for our email newsletter there, visit our shop wine section where you can find links to buy the wines that we rate as buys in each episode. And we want to make content that you care about and you like, so send us a note or DM us and give us some feedback. Let us know if there's wines you want us to try or winemaking areas of the world you're curious about. Answer some of our questions, and you can always email us at Joe at the winepairpodcast.com. But with that, we're gonna sign off. So thank you once again. We'll see you next time. As we say, life is short. So stop drinking shitty wine. Bye-bye.

Carmela: 47:38
Arriverci and happy day, always drink too much, always drink too much, I won't speak too much, I would think too much, when it's too much, when it doesn't matter, when it's too much,